Summer League Thread

[Handlogten's Heros]

Its insane to think its insane to discuss where a player played when a discussing a player.
Literally every player drafted is mentioned where they played at prior to being drafted and some places have a better track record than others.
for instance, im not sure if you follow college football but players who play at alabama are generally thought to become better players in the nfl than players who play at unlv. Its really not unusual. And not a big deal. certainly not insane lol.

No sir... you look at flashes of when he does cool ****... measure his wingspan... put his *** on the balance beam... see how he is at juggling. Simply struggling to produce in a league that doesn't produce a lot of NBA talent means nothing. You are lazy and you really have to have an eye for this.

The good news for those that are all in on Bilal is that the runway with guys like that is crazy long... Dante had like 5 years that were basically his rookie season. I'm all for taking calculated risks but a project like that is not something I'm excited about in the top 10. For example... if Dante had only cost us a top 5 pick that would have been okay... the opportunity costs when we didn't pivot earlier were costly too.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Its insane to think its insane to discuss where a player played when a discussing a player.
Literally every player drafted is mentioned where they played at prior to being drafted and some places have a better track record than others.
for instance, im not sure if you follow college football but players who play at alabama are generally thought to become better players in the nfl than players who play at unlv. Its really not unusual. And not a big deal. certainly not insane lol.

Ok Fish. Now let's critically think: Why are Bama football players highly regarded? Is it because they went to Bama or is it because highly rated HSers go to Alabama?

Are the Bama walk ons turning pro just because they went to Bama?

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

No sir... you look at flashes of when he does cool ****... measure his wingspan... put his *** on the balance beam... see how he is at juggling. Simply struggling to produce in a league that doesn't produce a lot of NBA talent means nothing. You are lazy and you really have to have an eye for this.

The good news for those that are all in on Bilal is that the runway with guys like that is crazy long... Dante had like 5 years that were basically his rookie season. I'm all for taking calculated risks but a project like that is not something I'm excited about in the top 10. For example... if Dante had only cost us a top 5 pick that would have been okay... the opportunity costs when we didn't pivot earlier were costly too.

If you have a low appetite for predrafting just say so.

And just stop with the BS about Bilal struggling to produce. He didn't struggle to produce. He played a certain role and he was absolutely producing in that role if you actually watched the games.

 

[SoberasHotRod]

Bufkin is long ways from being a legit NBA player. Has had some good moments in SL but also really bad ones, and perhaps more of the latter.

Those who give huge value to flashes may be high on him, but I prefer to look for things that a player does well consistently and Bufkin doesnt check many boxes there yet.

I've watched about 5 quarters worth of Bufkin so far and in my opinion he has looked pretty good doing non point guard things and really bad doing point guard things.

FWIW I think he'll be fine.

 

[KqWIN]

Its insane to think its insane to discuss where a player played when a discussing a player.
Literally every player drafted is mentioned where they played at prior to being drafted and some places have a better track record than others.
for instance, im not sure if you follow college football but players who play at alabama are generally thought to become better players in the nfl than players who play at unlv. Its really not unusual. And not a big deal. certainly not insane lol.

Right, so we should have never drafted Taylor Hendricks because UCF has never produced a good player. Or do we actually use our brains to differentiate Taylor Hendricks from other UCF players? Wemby and Bilal played on the SAME team. We can differentiate between two players in the same situation.

 

[fishonjazz]

Ok Fish. Now let's critically think: Why are Bama football players highly regarded? Is it because they went to Bama or is it because highly rated HSers go to Alabama?

Are the Bama walk ons turning pro just because they went to Bama?

Why aren't the french players turning into good pro products? could it be due to different rules, different style of play, different talent level, different levels of coaching, different culture, the fact that maybe the kids who grow up there tend to gravitate towards soccer, etc? Could be lots of reason i guess.
I think that often times highly rated euros choose to go to the NCAA to play in america because they want to be nba players. Did lauri choose to play in the french league? I bet he could have. I wonder why he didn't.

 

[fishonjazz]

Right, so we should have never drafted Taylor Hendricks because UCF has never produced a good player. Or do we actually use our brains to differentiate Taylor Hendricks from other UCF players? Wemby and Bilal played on the SAME team. We can differentiate between two players in the same situation.

Taylor hendricks produced. Sigh.
And yes, its ok to mention that Hendricks went to UCF. That is part of discussing players. happens all the time. I know where lots of players in the nba played before they got into the nba. Its a topic that is often discussed. not really all that insane.

 

[Elizah Huge]

Right, so we should have never drafted Taylor Hendricks because UCF has never produced a good player. Or do we actually use our brains to differentiate Taylor Hendricks from other UCF players? Wemby and Bilal played on the SAME team. We can differentiate between two players in the same situation.

I’m so glad you brought that up. Hendricks as a freshman averaged 15.1 PPG, 7 RPG, 1.7 BPG on 48/39/78 shooting splits. I think this quote from Sam Vecenie sums it up perfectly:

"The number of players 6’9 or taller who enter the league as plus defenders and plus shooters is extremely minimal. It’s [Taylor Hendricks], Jabari Smith Jr., Franz Wagner, Trey Murphy III and Jaren Jackson Jr. since 2018."

When you have that type of skill and skill set along with being such a good defender it separates you from other prospects.

Bilal on the other hand averaged 5/3/2 and shot horrendously from mid range and off the dribble.

Low usage players from that league have struggled to make it in the NBA so it is a bit of a concern when he has done nothing to separate himself from prior similar prospects except for being 6’8 with a 7’2 wingspan and being 18.

 

[Elizah Huge]

Nobody is saying we should never draft a player from the French league… if Bilal produced great numbers like Wemby or Luka did at a young age it wouldn’t even be a topic. When you average 5/3/2 and shoot the ball terribly it is a bit of a concern. Typical KqWIN making up arguments that aren’t there.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

If you have a low appetite for predrafting just say so.

And just stop with the BS about Bilal struggling to produce. He didn't struggle to produce. He played a certain role and he was absolutely producing in that role if you actually watched the games.

What? lol... I just ain't trying to squint to see things that aren't there but whatevs... its an educated guess. Its less educated than we might have with other players and he is a raw talent.

Call it what ever you want. He was not good enough to get a role where he could produce a lot... Its not BS lol... He is low production and I don't feel the need to prequalify it.

 

[KqWIN]

I’m so glad you brought that up. Hendricks as a freshman averaged 15.1 PPG, 7 RPG, 1.7 BPG on 48/39/78 shooting splits. I think this quote from Sam Vecenie sums it up perfectly:

"The number of players 6’9 or taller who enter the league as plus defenders and plus shooters is extremely minimal. It’s [Taylor Hendricks], Jabari Smith Jr., Franz Wagner, Trey Murphy III and Jaren Jackson Jr. since 2018."

When you have that type of skill and skill set along with being such a good defender it separates you from other prospects.

Bilal on the other hand averaged 5/3/2 and shot horrendously from mid range and off the dribble.

Low usage players from that league have struggled to make it in the NBA so it is a bit of a concern when he has done nothing to separate himself from prior similar prospects except for being 6’8 with a 7’2 wingspan and being 18.

That's a basketball argument. As I've said one million times, there are very obvious question marks about Bilal's game and prospect profile. Simply being French is not one of them.

The reason why UCF hasn't produced NBA players is because they haven't had guys as good as Taylor Hendricks in the past. Same applies for the French League. The reason why the French League has not had a good a NBA player lately is because there hasn't been a guy as good as Wemby. I think that's obvious. You may or may not think that Bilal is better than the other French prospects, but the very least you can do is have a conversation about the players themselves and recognize that players are individuals. They are not the league came from.

I personally believe Bilal is a better prospect than previous French League prospects. I also thinks he similar to prospects that have failed. The most common comparison we've made as we "glaze" Bilal is a guy who is considered a bust. There are real reasons to question him. I don't think it's unreasonable to dislike Bilal on the basis of his production or what you see on the court. I think it's unreasonable to dislike him on the basis that he's French or played in the French League.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Taylor hendricks produced. Sigh.
And yes, its ok to mention that Hendricks went to UCF. That is part of discussing players. happens all the time. I know where lots of players in the nba played before they got into the nba. Its a topic that is often discussed. not really all that insane.

Its also a thing people will include when they consider a guy from a mid major or small school... How was the level of competition? Are the stats inflated? etc. No one is saying don't draft guys from mets 92...

 

[fishonjazz]

Its also a thing people will include when they consider a guy from a mid major or small school... How was the level of competition? Are the stats inflated? etc. No one is saying don't draft guys from mets 92...

Exactly.

 

[KqWIN]

Nobody is saying we should never draft a player from the French league… if Bilal produced great numbers like Wemby or Luka did at a young age it wouldn’t even be a topic. When you average 5/3/2 and shoot the ball terribly it is a bit of a concern. Typical KqWIN making up arguments that aren’t there.

The thing that sparked this whole argument is a guy saying that French guys are overrated and they are overrated because they are French. What me and @stitches have been saying this whole time is that it's dumb to dislike Bilal on the basis of being French. Questioning his production is not a dumb argument. I think there are reasons to believe he's better than the raw production, but that's besides the point. If we had a problem with the production based argument, we would not have said "you should actually be talking about his low production/rawness" multiple times. One of the reasons this French = Overrated stuff is ridiculous in the first place is that there are very obvious question marks about Bilal.

 

[seattlejazzfan]

he forgot to mention Chet. either way, the list is short and they are all really good. honestly that's the best thing i've seen that gives me hope for Hendricks. it's rare to be a big with those two qualities and they are batting .1000

I’m so glad you brought that up. Hendricks as a freshman averaged 15.1 PPG, 7 RPG, 1.7 BPG on 48/39/78 shooting splits. I think this quote from Sam Vecenie sums it up perfectly:

"The number of players 6’9 or taller who enter the league as plus defenders and plus shooters is extremely minimal. It’s [Taylor Hendricks], Jabari Smith Jr., Franz Wagner, Trey Murphy III and Jaren Jackson Jr. since 2018."

 

[stitches]

The thing that sparked this whole argument is a guy saying that French guys are overrated and they are overrated because they are French. What me and @stitches have been saying this whole time is that it's dumb to dislike Bilal on the basis of being French. Questioning his production is not a dumb argument. I think there are reasons to believe he's better than the raw production, but that's besides the point. If we had a problem with the production based argument, we would not have said "you should actually be talking about his low production/rawness" multiple times. One of the reasons this French = Overrated stuff is ridiculous in the first place is that there are very obvious question marks about Bilal.

IMO if you just evaluate the player the whole is he French or Spaniard or Greek or German becomes completely irrelevant. There is nothing about being French that should make his shooting and offensive polish any better than it is on the tape. There is nothing about being French that will make his 7'2" wingspan any shorter or his athleticism any less impressive. Just freaking evaluate the player, his skills and his tools. "French" doesn't tell me anything about him as a basketball player. "French" is not a basketball attribute and you should ever see it as a basketball descriptor on a basketball scouting report. "Well, he's long and athletic but his jumpshot is very French"...

To me focusing on him being French adds nothing and describes nothing about him that we don't already know by just... watching him play.

 

[Elizah Huge]

The thing that sparked this whole argument is a guy saying that French guys are overrated and they are overrated because they are French. What me and @stitches have been saying this whole time is that it's dumb to dislike Bilal on the basis of being French. Questioning his production is not a dumb argument. I think there are reasons to believe he's better than the raw production, but that's besides the point. If we had a problem with the production based argument, we would not have said "you should actually be talking about his low production/rawness" multiple times. One of the reasons this French = Overrated stuff is ridiculous in the first place is that there are very obvious question marks about Bilal.

You guys are arguing against nobody then. You’ve been wasting all this time lmao. Not a single poster on here has said don’t draft them because they’re French or because they played in that league. It’s people saying don’t draft him because his production was terrible and on top of it the history of prospects from that league isn’t on his side. It’s one thing to consider with the main thing being he just wasn’t that good. It’s all projecting with him and I am super wary of prospects where his best quality is what he could potentially be. You really been wasting all this time and paragraphs for nothing because you want to make up arguments which is ironic because you accuse others of doing that very thing.

 

[Elizah Huge]

IMO if you just evaluate the player the whole is he French or Spaniard or Greek or German becomes completely irrelevant. There is nothing about being French that should make his shooting and offensive polish any better than it is on the tape. There is nothing about being French that will make his 7'2" wingspan any shorter or his athleticism any less impressive. Just freaking evaluate the player, his skills and his tools. "French" doesn't tell me anything about him as a basketball player. "French" is not a basketball attribute and you should ever see it as a basketball descriptor on a basketball scouting report. "Well, he's long and athletic but his jumpshot is very French"...

To me focusing on him being French adds nothing and describes nothing about him that we don't already know by just... watching him play.

Again, you are arguing against nobody. Having terrible production in that French league with low usage doesn’t bode well for translating to the NBA. Quite literally it has never happened. Bilal would be the first.

 

[seattlejazzfan]

IMO if you just evaluate the player the whole is he French or Spaniard or Greek or German becomes completely irrelevant. There is nothing about being French that should make his shooting and offensive polish any better than it is on the tape. There is nothing about being French that will make his 7'2" wingspan any shorter or his athleticism any less impressive. Just freaking evaluate the player, his skills and his tools. "French" doesn't tell me anything about him as a basketball player. "French" is not a basketball attribute and you should ever see it as a basketball descriptor on a basketball scouting report. "Well, he's long and athletic but his jumpshot is very French"...

To me focusing on him being French adds nothing and describes nothing about him that we don't already know by just... watching him play.

you realize nobody is arguing he's not a great prospect because he's french, right?

the argument is that he played in a league - which happens to be the french league - that hasn't had a great history of guys hitting in the NBA...AND...that he wasn't that good in that particular league. not one person is arguing he's not a great prospect on the basis that he's french.

it's almost as if you're wanting that to be the argument so you can shoot it down - but at the end of the day all you've done is created a straw man.

 

[KqWIN]

IMO if you just evaluate the player the whole is he French or Spaniard or Greek or German becomes completely irrelevant. There is nothing about being French that should make his shooting and offensive polish any better than it is on the tape. There is nothing about being French that will make his 7'2" wingspan any shorter or his athleticism any less impressive. Just freaking evaluate the player, his skills and his tools. "French" doesn't tell me anything about him as a basketball player. "French" is not a basketball attribute and you should never see it as a basketball descriptor on a basketball scouting report. "Well, he's long and athletic but his jumpshot is very French and his production is borederline-French"...

Exactly. I feel like this could not be more obvious with Bilal and Wemby both being French and being teammates. Their Frenchenss is does not matter. It's their game, production, skillset, physical profile....that's the stuff that actually matters. I think Wemby missed the deadline for the previous draft by a few days. If he had been drafted a year earlier, it means nothing for Bilal's chances. I feel like there's so much irony in trying to prove that the French League produces busts. If that was a good indicator.....what would you have thought about Frank Ntlikina before he was drafted? You would have looked at history and seen quite a lot of success for French prospects. Maybe the lesson learned from Frank isn't that we should predict future success from a player's fellow countrymen.