Game Thread Nov 25, 2023 07:30PM MT: Jazz vs. Pelicans

[HermanG]

Some of Keyonte's turnovers last night were a little concerning for me. In some cases he just threw the ball to the other team and in others he just couldn't handle ball pressure. It felt like he was processing the game a little slow.

I'm not super concerned, he's still getting up to NBA speed. I would just be less concerned if his turnovers were a result of him trying to do too much vs just looking overwhelmed by the NBA.

Its more about the matchup. Dyson Daniels is an elite on-ball defender and Keyonte wasnt really prepared for that. I've watched more than few Pels games and he has aboslutely bullied some lead ball handlers. Keyonte needs to learn how to adapt when playing against guys like him, but he hasnt really been tested like that before.

Pels PoA defense with Daniels and Herb Jones has seriously slowed down some of the most elite guys like Luka (16 pts on 16 FGA in their second game against Mavs), Fox (14 points on 18 FGA in the first game against Kings) and SGA (20 points on 20 FGA). Keeping that in mind, it could have been much worse.

 

[HermanG]

I watched the game where the ball moved. I never said we shot well, and you don't get assists on misses, but outside of Sexton and your boy tht on a few occasions, the ball moved well. I prefer it to iso after iso after iso. Especially in the crowded paint.
I'll just leave there as your pages long disputes with people get redundant as hell. I don't care to indulge you with that.

In addition to the passing stats I provided in a previous post, we also had 56 potential assists in that Pels game (lead by George with 12, but Sexton and THT each had 10 as well). That came in 100 possessions and with 87 FGA.

Compare that to the double OT game vs Suns where we as a team took 115 FGA in 116 possessions but only had 49 potential assists (lead by George with 11). Also previous game vs Portland where starters played big minutes we had just 45 potential assists in 98 possessions (lead by George again with 11).

In addition to that, we had 36 catch and shoot opportunities vs Pels. Compare that to 24 vs Portland and 34 in the double OT game vs Suns. Our season average is 29.7 C&S attempts per game. We just hit them like crap and ended up 28.6% on C&S 3s. We also didnt shoot a single contested 3. We shot 43 in total, and 19 were classified as open and 24 as wide open.

 

[fishonjazz]

No idea what game you watched. 23 assist to 23 turnovers

He didnt say the jazz had a great assist to turnover rate. Or that the passing was great. Said the ball was moving.
You should post how many passes were made in this game vs their season average for passes per game or something if you want to make a point in the discussion

Edit: just saw that this was already covered.

Sent from my iPad using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I watched the game where the ball moved. I never said we shot well, and you don't get assists on misses, but outside of Sexton and your boy tht on a few occasions, the ball moved well. I prefer it to iso after iso after iso. Especially in the crowded paint.
I'll just leave there as your pages long disputes with people get redundant as hell. I don't care to indulge you with that.

Yeah I think your just letting your bias cloud what actually happened

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

You may want to re-evaluate your own eyeball test when everyone else sees it differently....

Facts:
Vs Pels: 309 passes made in 100 possessions for 3.09 passes per possession

That was our second highest amount of total passes (highest was our first game vs Memphis with 310) and highest passes per possession count (vs Memphis we had 107 possessions)

For reference:
Previous two games: 538 passes in 202 possessions for 2.66 passes per possession
Season average 280.6 passes in 102.25 possessions for 2.74 passes per possession

And we got to that 309 despite giving them a lot of early turnovers which means the passes per possession count where we didnt turn it over was actually much higher (no such tracking stat available though).

Yeah, total passes don't equal ball movement

 

[Pinhead]

Yeah, total passes don't equal ball movement

Um… isn’t that exactly what it means?

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Um… isn’t that exactly what it means?

I would categorize it as effective passing and player movement leading to flow that gets you good shots.

I didn't see that in the new Orleans game. I just saw bad offense with more passing.

Yeah, you can say potential assist and more passes, but that also includes passing to Yurtseven and Kessler wide open in the corner so I don't take these non contextualized stats as the holy grail.

 

[HermanG]

I would categorize it as effective passing and player movement leading to flow that gets you good shots.

I didn't see that in the new Orleans game. I just saw bad offense with more passing.

Yeah, you can say potential assist and more passes, but that also includes passing to Yurtseven and Kessler wide open in the corner so I don't take these non contextualized stats as the holy grail.

We had 43 open or wide open 3 point shots. Thats tied for the most open+wide open looks we have taken in a single game all season. And a bulk of those shots went to Keyonte, Sexton, Ochai and Tech, who all supposedly should be pretty high on the priority list with Lauri and JC out. Only gripe could be that KO only got 3 shots, but he also passed a few looks he could have taken to drive/pass.

 

[Agent#00]

Having 23 TOs without your top TO guy means jazz is just sloppy? Can we even fix this? We played 10 guys and everybody have 1 except yurt.

 

[HermanG]

Having 23 TOs without your top TO guy means jazz is just sloppy? Can we even fix this? We played 10 guys and everybody have 1 except yurt.

We were sloppy but Pels also played aggressive defense and forced a lot of those (they had 15 steals). Previous high TO games we kinda self-inflicted a lot of TOs by doing bad decissions in our driving and passing. We did some here as well, but a lot was also about them being aggressive. Pels are 6th in the league in steals per game and they had 17 in a game vs Dallas (Luka accounting for 8 of them), so its not like they havent done it before.

But there also was a major positive stat for that game: We had only 13 PF's, which is our lowest total of the season.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

We were sloppy but Pels also played aggressive defense and forced a lot of those (they had 15 steals). Previous high TO games we kinda self-inflicted a lot of TOs by doing bad decissions in our driving and passing. We did some here as well, but a lot was also about them being aggressive. Pels are 6th in the league in steals per game and they had 17 in a game vs Dallas (Luka accounting for 8 of them), so its not like they havent done it before.

But there also was a major positive stat for that game: We had only 13 PF's, which is our lowest total of the season.

They are 6th in the league in steals and Jose has been out most of the year. Herb, Dyson, Jose all get in on the ball and create havoc. There were some super bad ones too don’t get me wrong.

 

[HermanG]

They are 6th in the league in steals and Jose has been out most of the year. Herb, Dyson, Jose all get in on the ball and create havoc. There were some super bad ones too don’t get me wrong.

Yeah they are definitely ball hawking and hacking a lot and play with super active hands on the inside as well. Zion has also become a bit of a deflection gambler, who tries to steal passes and block shots by anticipating and overcommiting.

 

[Ron Mexico]

We were sloppy but Pels also played aggressive defense and forced a lot of those (they had 15 steals). Previous high TO games we kinda self-inflicted a lot of TOs by doing bad decissions in our driving and passing. We did some here as well, but a lot was also about them being aggressive. Pels are 6th in the league in steals per game and they had 17 in a game vs Dallas (Luka accounting for 8 of them), so its not like they havent done it before.

But there also was a major positive stat for that game: We had only 13 PF's, which is our lowest total of the season.

This is the second season in a row of being terrible at turnovers. Either its a player issue or a coaching issue, but either way its a huge issue! Then when you look at us not only turning the ball over the most in the NBA this year and 2nd worst last year we give up a the most off those points. We also hardly get any turnovers and get any points for those. This is easily one of the biggest reasons for our offense and defense sucking. Its huge point difference every game.

 

[fishonjazz]

Yeah, total passes don't equal ball movement

lol. A pass is when the BALL MOVES from one player to another player.

 

[HermanG]

This is the second season in a row of being terrible at turnovers. Either its a player issue or a coaching issue, but either way its a huge issue! Then when you look at us not only turning the ball over the most in the NBA this year and 2nd worst last year we give up a the most off those points. We also hardly get any turnovers and get any points for those. This is easily one of the biggest reasons for our offense and defense sucking. Its huge point difference every game.

Oh its definitely a major issue. We average 6.1 turnovers per game more than the best team (Mavs) and 1.6 more than the 28th team (Blazers). Only Pistons are even close to us largely thanks to Cade who leads the NBA in turnovers and Duren and Ausar duo (those 3 guys combine for 9.8 per game!!). We are also 29th as a team in assist/TO ratio with 1.48 (only Portland is worse).

I think there are three major reasons at least:
1) The quality of our guard corps is not good. That is just a sad state of affairs, and something that doesnt fall on Hardy.
2) Hardy wants us to play the type of ball that some of those guards are not wired to play.
3) Our key bigs are not very good at ball handling or passing, which generates turnovers and puts extra pressure on those subpar guards.

Funny stat of the day though:
In games where we have 20 or less TO we are 2-8
In games where we have 21+ TOs we are 3-3 (in fairness, all the losses here are 16-17 point blowouts)

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Oh its definitely a major issue. We average 6.1 turnovers per game more than the best team (Mavs) and 1.6 more than the 28th team (Blazers). Only Pistons are even close to us largely thanks to Cade who leads the NBA in turnovers and Duren and Ausar duo (those 3 guys combine for 9.8 per game!!). We are also 29th as a team in assist/TO ratio with 1.48 (only Portland is worse).

I think there are three major reasons at least:
1) The quality of our guard corps is not good. That is just a sad state of affairs, and something that doesnt fall on Hardy.
2) Hardy wants us to play the type of ball that some of those guards are not wired to play.
3) Our key bigs are not very good at ball handling or passing, which generates turnovers and puts extra pressure on those subpar guards.

Funny stat of the day though:
In games where we have 20 or less TO we are 2-8
In games where we have 21+ TOs we are 3-3 (in fairness, all the losses here are 16-17 point blowouts)

JC/THT/KO/Dunn are just turnover machines this year. Key with his recent game is not far behind. Its a deadly combo of lack of shooting and lack of good passers.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

This is the second season in a row of being terrible at turnovers. Either its a player issue or a coaching issue, but either way its a huge issue! Then when you look at us not only turning the ball over the most in the NBA this year and 2nd worst last year we give up a the most off those points. We also hardly get any turnovers and get any points for those. This is easily one of the biggest reasons for our offense and defense sucking. Its huge point difference every game.

The Jazz lack efficient individual shot creators and they lack strong ball-handlers. It's only a coaching issue if you want Hardy to just tell the team to pass less and shoot earlier in the shot clock.

And the Jazz defend off turnovers just fine, so that's not really an issue. They have a top 5 transition defense according to NBA.com

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

JC/THT/KO/Dunn are just turnover machines this year. Key with his recent game is not far behind. Its a deadly combo of lack of shooting and lack of good passers.

The Jazz dont really lack shooting though. They are 17th in % and 9th in makes. It's not great shooting, but the shooting isnt the root cause of these issues.

It's really just the fact that the Jazz dont have an efficient indivudal shot creator. The Jazz players have to work pretty hard to create their own shot and you combine that with most of them just being bad at dribbling, it leads to a lot of turnovers.

If Lauri, our best player, could actually playmake to any degree, it would help out a ton, he can't though so you have guys like Clarkson (loose handle) and THT (extremely loose handle) trying to create. Then you have a rookie who is obviously just going to do dumb stuff from time to time. Then you have Sexton who likes to overpenetrate. .

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

The Jazz dont really lack shooting though. They are 17th in % and 9th in makes. It's not great shooting, but the shooting isnt the root cause of these issues.

It's really just the fact that the Jazz dont have an efficient indivudal shot creator. The Jazz players have to work pretty hard to create their own shot and you combine that with most of them just being bad at dribbling, it leads to a lot of turnovers.

If Lauri, our best player, could actually playmake to any degree, it would help out a ton, he can't though so you have guys like Clarkson (loose handle) and THT (extremely loose handle) trying to create. Then you have a rookie who is obviously just going to do dumb stuff from time to time. Then you have Sexton who likes to overpenetrate. .

I am thinking more in the starting lineups. Like if you have THT with Kessler and Collins in the same lineup it is going to encourage teams to leave guys and muck things up. If we had great shooting around some of our iffy guard play it might be okayish instead of atrocious. Slide Dunn into some of those lineups and it gets worse.

Its really a confluence of many of the things mentioned. It seemed to get better with the lineup with Key as a starter and Collins as the 5. IDK all these issues were pretty easy to see happening to start the year. Lots of finishers and no real playmakers.

JC was exceptionally sloppy and bricky to start the season so that didn't help.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I am thinking more in the starting lineups. Like if you have THT with Kessler and Collins in the same lineup it is going to encourage teams to leave guys and muck things up. If we had great shooting around some of our iffy guard play it might be okayish instead of atrocious. Slide Dunn into some of those lineups and it gets worse.

Its really a confluence of many of the things mentioned. It seemed to get better with the lineup with Key as a starter and Collins as the 5. IDK all these issues were pretty easy to see happening to start the year. Lots of finishers and no real playmakers.

JC was exceptionally sloppy and bricky to start the season so that didn't help.

Pretty sure the turnover issue has persisted with Walker out and the starting lineup being full of pretty good shooting.