Mathews signs offer sheet w/Blazers (5 yrs/34 mil)

[Hopper]

Borat seems to have only one main agenda here. And by "here" I am by no means limiting it to this thread--just look at the others he has posted in. And that is this:

To "prove," via baseless assertions presented as fact, that he knows more, and is much more capable, than the Jazz professionals we should unanimously be begging him to replace.

 

[Borat]

Yes, you did present it as fact. I have already quoted you on it, and asked you about it--but you have not responded yet.

I made my position very clear. I think if KOC offered anything, Siler would mention that also or some other report leaked out. Instead all we have is Siler saying Jazz told him to look elsewhere. Am I certain about this? No, just like we cannot be certain of anything that is going on. We have to look at results though and make best conclusions we can. It's obvious Porty did a better job negotiating than Jazz did apparently. Typically it wouldn't matter, because we would just match anyway and be fine. But we are close to tax limit, so it was actually important to avoid offer sheet and the poison pill. You see where the beef is?

 

[Borat]

Borat seems to have only one main agenda here. And by "here" I am by no means limiting it to this thread--just look at the others he has posted in. And that is this:

To "prove," via baseless assertions presented as fact, that he knows more, and is much more capable, than the Jazz professionals we should unanimously be begging him to replace.

That's BS. I did like Hayward's pick, and this Jazz FO did well there as well as many other moves in the past. But I can't just sit here and praise FO when we are losing talent and are not able to get anything added when at least according to reputable reports some good guys (like Jefferson) are within our reach. If KOC gets Jefferson to the Jazz, I will be the first one singing praises. But when we lose 20 and 10 guy for nothing, it's a different story.

 

[jazzmeister]

This is not the Millsap situation. With Millsap, the Jazz had three years of data. They had a player who had demonstrated not just an ability to start, but start at a high level. Millsap is also a genuine NBA athlete, and a big man (cue the jokes), and big men come at a premium. They could reasonably project Millsap to be well worth that offer sheet.

Matthews is the opposite. They have one year of data. They have a player who started by default, filled his role admirably, but has clear deficiencies. He's barely an average NBA athlete. And he plays a position where there are always bargains.

Separate the emotion, and this is a no brainer. Bid Wes luck, and spend the money elsewhere on better values.

Started by default? You do know the Jazz opened the season with Korver, Brewer, and CJ as potential SG starters right? Matthews worked his way into the starting lineup. He wasn't put there by default. He made the Brewer trade look like a "ho hum" move rathter than a "OMFG" move. Sure he doesn't have superb athleticism, but he's one of the best defenders on the Jazz, and he can hit from outside and penetrate into the lane. He earned his starting role, and he was a MLE type player for the Jazz last year and in the playoffs.

 

[Hopper]

You see where the beef is?

No, I don't. Nor do I see where your wordy "response" answers, or even addresses, the question I axxed to begin with. That's my beef, eh?

 

[Chad Feldheimer]

If Matthews came in and said he wanted the full MLE what would be the point of KOC offering anything? He says ok we offer the same thing? Then Matthews gets a bigger offer and the Jazz look like they got outbid? Matthews goes out and get the MLE and the Jazz match. He gets a lesser offer the Jazz match. He didn't have to offer. The Jazz had all the cards and knew their number and if it went over than that's life. Matthews was going to search NO MATTER WHAT. He or anyone else would be foolish not to.

 

[DWill_Gr8tness]

ummmm why is everyone fighting?

 

[Hopper]

If Matthews came in and said he wanted the full MLE what would be the point of KOC offering anything?

I can see a point, Chad, and I'll go further to speculate that, if that's what Matthews said, KOC did make him an offer for less than the MLE. Matthews, and his agent, were not so unsure of themselves or so afraid of risk that they took it though. That's my best guess.

Edit: KOC may well have added that, if Matthews DIDN"T get a better offer from another team, he (KOC) could not guarantee him that the same offer would still be there later.

 

[memo is money]

No, simpleton. He could have mentioned Jazz offered partial MLE, yet Matthews wanted full. Instead he said Matthews wanted full, and Jazz said to go look elsewhere. See the difference?

I'm OK with either of them. Neither of two contradicts with my opinion. Matthews demanded full MLE (which he does not deserve IMO), and the Jazz said "you probably will not find a team that offers you that much".
- It proves that KOC contacted with Wes and tried to make things happen... You did accuse the FO, remember. What could they have done? I think, when it comes to RFAs, it's a reasonable option to let the market set the price for players. Just like your accusation for Millsap and CJ signings, this complaint is just a speculation. Had KOC offered contracts to these players before the season ended, there would have been some other fans complaining about how early the Jazz decided on such crucial actions, claiming that it would have been better to wait till FA. Complaints never end. Bottom line is: Millsap's contract seems even better after this FA Frenzy, in which players get long and big (not deserved) contracts. Paul is one of BETTER PFs in the NBA. Millsap will earn apprx. 20mil $ in 3 years, comparable to REDDICK's contract. See the difference ? CJ, FINALLY, started to show how talented and versatile he is.
You: "We could have counted and started negotiating rather than tell him to go find an offer if we really wanted this guy. I mean they said exact same thing to Millsap, and that didn't turn out so well, did it?"
You: "He was an RFA (which dissuades teams from pursuing him as he is not completely Free Agent) and CJ kind of set the market with 4/16 before. So, it is certainly reasonable to assume he could accept it. Of course that was if we started negotiations and actually moved our asses. According to Siler, KOC told him to find an offer from someone else. You know, same thing he told CJ and Millsap before."

 

[Chad Feldheimer]

I can see a point, Chad, and I'll go further to speculate that, if that's what Matthews said, KOC did make him an offer for less than the MLE. Matthews, and his agent, were not so unsure of themselves or so afraid of risk that they took it though. That's my best guess.

Edit: KOC may well have added that, if Matthews DIDN"T get a better offer from another team, he (KOC) could not guarantee him that the same offer would still be there later.

Why would KOC make an offer at that point then? To try and low ball him? That would just piss him off. When he knew he would test the market regardless.

Who knows maybe Matthews wanted MORE than MLE. Look at what Outlaw got.

 

[write4u]

I think the Jazz are prepared to give Matthews whatever it takes. considering they never made an offer to Korver and are taking a wait and see attitude with Brewer. Trouble is that they are cheap and instead of making Matthews a reasonable deal, they decided to play Russian Roulette and hope they get him real cheap. Well, it didn't work with Sap and it's not working again with Matthews.

 

[Jeditiger]

Seriously, people are complaining that Matthews was told to go out and set his market? This is what restricted FA's do, you idiots!

I think this is more of people just bitching to hear their own voices.

 

[billyshelby]

Jazz will match. $5 mil a year isn't bad for a starting SG. Wesley has a sweet offensive/defensive game and he's only going to get better. He was a MLE player for us last year. If we don't match who are we going to get to replace him that as the same offensive and defensive game? For years we had a weakness at SG. Wesley is our answer. Pay the man and let him get better with the more opportunities coming his way.

Wes is a starting guard by default. He's a very good defender, I grant that. But 'sweet' offensive game? He's Courtney Lee Lite. How much would you pay for Courtney Lee?

Amongst listed SG's, per 48, Wes ranks: 27th of 40 in scoring; 28th in assists; 17th in steals; 29th in rebounds; 28th in blocked shots. By contrast, Lee is 12th in steals and 13th in rebounding, while roughly the same as Wes in other categories.

Wes is a good player, but not particularly great at anything. He should have a long career backing up starters with the intangibles he brings. But he's not a 5mil player.

 

[Chad Feldheimer]

I think the Jazz are prepared to give Matthews whatever it takes. considering they never made an offer to Korver and are taking a wait and see attitude with Brewer. Trouble is that they are cheap and instead of making Matthews a reasonable deal, they decided to play Russian Roulette and hope they get him real cheap. Well, it didn't work with Sap and it's not working again with Matthews.

How did it not work with Millsap and how is it not working with Matthews?

Sap for 4y/32M would be a steal in this offseason. David Lee got about 5M more PER season and for 6 years.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

This is what should have happened if KOC wasn't an idiot.............according to Borat:

KOC: What kind of money you looking for?
Matthews: 5 years, full MLE
KOC: How about something less?
Matthews: DONE!

 

[Hopper]

Why would KOC make an offer at that point then? To try and low ball him? That would just piss him off. When he knew he would test the market regardless.

Why should it "piss him off?" This is a business, and both KOC and Matthews agent know it. I can imagine it goin down like this:

KOC: You think you can git $5 million a year, and maybe you can, I dunno. But we have no incentive to offer it to you without you gittin another offer first. But, I'll tell you what we will do:

We'll offer Wes $4.5 million a year right now, even though we think that could be too high. If he doesn't take it, I guarantee you that, if he DOESN'T get a higher offer, which we can match, whether you like it or not, then we will NOT offer more than $4 million a year. If Wes doesn't git a better offer, and doesn't wanna take $4 million, he can go play in Europe for a year. In the meantime, we'll fulfill our needs elsewhere. Think about it, and let us know what ya wanna do, eh?

 

[calijazz]

Haven't read every post in this thread, so not sure if this has been posted, but it's well worth noting in this discussion:

#Blazers expected to make official offer today to #Utah_Jazz's Matthews, source says. Deal won't be "toxic" but will be front loaded.

So that means the first season of the deal will probably start at the full MLE, then decline from there if the 5 years, 25 mil figure is accurate. Not ideal, but not horrible either. But that's what you've got to come to expect with RFA. At least it's not "toxic" like Millsap's was (or it least appears at this point).

https://twitter.com/blazerbanter/status/18225772507

 

[billyshelby]

Started by default? You do know the Jazz opened the season with Korver, Brewer, and CJ as potential SG starters right? Matthews worked his way into the starting lineup. He wasn't put there by default. He made the Brewer trade look like a "ho hum" move rathter than a "OMFG" move. Sure he doesn't have superb athleticism, but he's one of the best defenders on the Jazz, and he can hit from outside and penetrate into the lane. He earned his starting role, and he was a MLE type player for the Jazz last year and in the playoffs.

Wes became a starter when Brewer got dealt. The options at that point were Korver, who was struggling with injuries, or AK, who became the anchor of the second unit. On talent, you start AK, and decide between Miles and Matthews at the 2. But for practical purposes, keeping AK on the second unit and giving him starter's minutes made more sense. It's the same decision Jerry made a year prior to start Miles ahead of AK. Miles wasn't a 'starter' by the connotation of the word. He was a backup starting. That's what Wes is--a backup starting. It doesn't mean he isn't great as the 5th option in our O, but he's not a 'starter' by NBA standards.

 

[Chad Feldheimer]

This is what should have happened if KOC wasn't an idiot.............according to Borat:

KOC: What kind of money you looking for?
Matthews: 5 years, full MLE
KOC: How about something less?
Matthews: DONE!

You forgot the "and don't even bother thinking anyone else would consider offering you that, why even look"...

 

[Chad Feldheimer]

Haven't read every post in this thread, so not sure if this has been posted, but it's well worth noting in this discussion:



So that means the first season of the deal will probably start at the full MLE, then decline from there if the 5 years, 25 mil figure is accurate. Not ideal, but not horrible either. But that's what you've got to come to expect with RFA. At least it's not "toxic" like Millsap's was (or it least appears at this point).

https://twitter.com/blazerbanter/status/18225772507

According to HoopsHype the BLazers are over the 60M Cap right? So all they can offer is the full MLE. How can they "front load" the MLE ? Seem like a contradiction to me.