Game Thread Jan 18, 2024 07:00PM MT: Jazz vs. Thunder

[HermanG]

SGA is a midrange boss. He will be dynamic in the playoffs. Not just a foul hunter. The hardest thing to deny a player is the midrange because you end up conceding the paint or the three. He’s so slippery out there that he’s hard to gameplan for.

They got some issues but SGA being the number 1 guy isn’t one.

Can you come up with a comp of a guy carrying his team anywhere in playoffs with midrange based game from past 15 years? I just cannot think of anyone.

I mean DeRozan is the best midrange guy I could think of since Kobe, but he hasnt really carried his teams in the postseason. Even that one year when Raptors went to the ECF with him he had pretty bad playoff stats and wasnt their top scorer for most games. Then after they traded him for a modern wing in Kawhi they immediately won the chip.

SGA is both special and elite for sure (and better than DeRozan has ever been), but I'm not 100% sold on him being #1 in a championship team just because he looks too much like a throwback player.

 

[outerspacefan]

Crazy that people in this thread are fighting over Kessler, who was a huge positive, and Dunn who was largely irrelevant, when it was George who sucked the life out of our comeback attempt in the third and fourth.

Yes, it's odd. KG's playing without being ready... not his fault I guess.

 

[Tremendous Upside]

I changed my mind, I DO have energy to complain about George.

Keyonte wasn't all that bad. He makes a few of those driving shots or gets fouled and we're singing his praises. He came in with us down 22-13 and by possession touches:

1. Not involved
2. Bullet pass to Lauri for a wide open 3 miss, stops a SGA drive with nice D
3. Good pass to JC who drives into the trees and gets his terrible outlet pass stolen for uncontested OKC layup
4. TO, Gets stripped of ball on drive, we stop them going other way
5. Really bad turnover by Ochai on a pass attempt to Kessler
6.. Not involved
7. Makes a corner 3 to make it 34-20 and OKC call timeout.

At this point Key gave up 0 points on defense, and plays fine on offense but has one turnover.

LOL. Keyonte's defense in this game was an affront to basketball. I'm not mad at a rookie making inevitable rookie mistakes, but I can't stand low effort in a game like this. Standing around. Not putting a hand up when SGA is taking a shot 3 feet from you. Not running back.

IMO he earned himself a one game DNP-CD.

 

[outerspacefan]

Keyonte wasn't all that bad. He makes a few of those driving shots or gets fouled and we're singing his praises. He came in with us down 22-13 and by possession touches:

1. Not involved
2. Bullet pass to Lauri for a wide open 3 miss, stops a SGA drive with nice D
3. Good pass to JC who drives into the trees and gets his terrible outlet pass stolen for uncontested OKC layup
4. TO, Gets stripped of ball on drive, we stop them going other way
5. Really bad turnover by Ochai on a pass attempt to Kessler
6.. Not involved
7. Makes a corner 3 to make it 34-20 and OKC call timeout.

At this point Key gave up 0 points on defense, and plays fine on offense but has one turnover.

Agreed. Fats are facts. He was not negative during that particular stretch.
Second half George was an issue though.

 

[Tremendous Upside]

Can you come up with a comp of a guy carrying his team anywhere in playoffs with midrange based game from past 15 years? I just cannot think of anyone.

I mean DeRozan is the best midrange guy I could think of since Kobe, but he hasnt really carried his teams in the postseason. Even that one year when Raptors went to the ECF with him he had pretty bad playoff stats and wasnt their top scorer for most games. Then after they traded him for a modern wing in Kawhi they immediately won the chip.

SGA is both special and elite for sure (and better than DeRozan has ever been), but I'm not 100% sold on him being #1 in a championship team just because he looks too much like a throwback player.

SGA is great but the whole league has apparently been hypnotized into guarding him like he can shoot from the outside. IMO the correct defensive recipe against him is "Let him try to beat us on long 2p shots". Because that's what he will fall back on if he can't get into the midrange. And while I'm sure he'll make a bunch of those, it's not winning basketball. It's inefficient and you don't get to the line.

 

[str8line]

Don't get me wrong, George was unimaginably bad, but I just don't have the energy to complain about him right now. This loss was draining. I need load management.

Unimaginably bad? Not at all.

 

[str8line]

Agreed. Fats are facts. He was not negative during that particular stretch.
Second half George was an issue though.

About to break down his second stint. And I added the rest of his first.

 

[Bawse Dawg]

Can you come up with a comp of a guy carrying his team anywhere in playoffs with midrange based game from past 15 years? I just cannot think of anyone.

I mean DeRozan is the best midrange guy I could think of since Kobe, but he hasnt really carried his teams in the postseason. Even that one year when Raptors went to the ECF with him he had pretty bad playoff stats and wasnt their top scorer for most games. Then after they traded him for a modern wing in Kawhi they immediately won the chip.

SGA is both special and elite for sure (and better than DeRozan has ever been), but I'm not 100% sold on him being #1 in a championship team just because he looks too much like a throwback player.

Kawhi

 

[str8line]

I changed my mind, I DO have energy to complain about George.


LOL. Keyonte's defense in this game was an affront to basketball. I'm not mad at a rookie making inevitable rookie mistakes, but I can't stand low effort in a game like this. Standing around. Not putting a hand up when SGA is taking a shot 3 feet from you. Not running back.

IMO he earned himself a one game DNP-CD.

WTF are you talking about? He gave up 0 points his first stint and did not one thing bad on D. Rewatch it dude.

 

[fishonjazz]

On the contrary. It was absolutely critical. OKC was able to cut our comeback short by simply hacking Walker. Losing possession at that point was terrible. It destroyed our momentum and the feeling that we're in control of our destiny. It's demoralizing.

You can be a great rim protector and still be a HUGE liability for your team at the end of games. It doesn't take much to remove the hacking from the opponent's toolkit. Just make, like, 60% of your FT's. You're a pro, that's not too much to ask. Devote an entire offseason to it if you have to.

Lol, what if we would have missed a shot on that possession? What if we would have had a turnover? Both things would have been worse than a missed free throw. We weren't scoring every possession. Plus the hack a kessler saved us time which we desperately needed at that point in the game. You are being a silly goose

 

[fishonjazz]

Sure it hurt us but 1 point in that game when he cut off the Thunders water on defense isn’t a big concern lol. If other teams start doing it more it might actually be a reason to move Kessler into the starting lineup. Let Collins close out a few quarters… bring Kessler back for last two minutes.

This. It is certainly concerning going forward but not last night.

If I were an opposing coach and my team was in the penalty and kessler was in the game and there was more than 2 minutes left in the game and my players weren't in major foul trouble then I would 100% hack a kessler over and over again regardless of the score of the game or whatever. I think all teams should be doing this strategy. But they aren't as of now and it hasn't been a problem to this point.

If it becomes a problem then either Kessler will need to get a lot better at free throws (he needs to anyway imo), hardy will need to play kessler at the beginning of quarters, or we will need to look to trade him.

 

[fishonjazz]

Why are you lumping Sexton in that. He’s been our best scorer since he was made the starter. It took only 19 shots for him to get 31. If he scores with this type of efficiency he can shoot it 100 times for all I care. Also he is a shot creator Lauri really isn't.

Agreed.

 

[framer]

This. It is certainly concerning going forward but not last night.

If I were an opposing coach and my team was in the penalty and kessler was in the game and there was more than 2 minutes left in the game and my players weren't in major foul trouble then I would 100% hack a kessler over and over again regardless of the score of the game or whatever. I think all teams should be doing this strategy. But they aren't as of now and it hasn't been a problem to this point.

If it becomes a problem then either Kessler will need to get a lot better at free throws (he needs to anyway imo), hardy will need to play kessler at the beginning of quarters, or we will need to look to trade him.

Eh, this isn't the 90s. It worked on Shaq because Shaq got the ball, a lot and hacking him was better than being dunked on. You gonna just hack Kessler 8 possessions in a row when he doesn't have the ball? I guess you are welcome to it. It is not winning basketball though, otherwise every team would do it a lot.

All in all, it us a stupid thing to obsess about, which is understandable since it is a Cy hobby horse.

 

[Tremendous Upside]

Lol, what if we would have missed a shot on that possession? What if we would have had a turnover? Both things would have been worse than a missed free throw.

Let's just say I'll take my chances. Putting Kessler on the line is the worst outcome in crunch time, where you need to be in control of the ball as much as possible. OKC was shooting lights out. They knew that if they cut our possession short by hacking Walker, they had a good chance of coming out as the winner of that exchange and putting us away. It's about control.

Plus the hack a kessler saved us time which we desperately needed at that point in the game.

No it didn't. It removed the chance to make a high-scoring play and gave OKC that chance instead.

 

[fishonjazz]

No, not just the one missed free throw. What killed us was the fact that OKC was able to gently wrap up Kessler, resulting in us losing possession of the ball, gaining only one point (Walker got lucky, he's at 49%), messing up our rhythm and demoralizing us (nobody wants to see Walker's terrified *** at the line in crunch time).

You can't have a player like that on the floor at that stage.

Lol, we saved time which we needed and got a point when we could have ran off more time and missed a shot or got a turnover for zero points.

 

[HermanG]

Kawhi

I literally mentioned him in the post, and how Raptors replaced DeRozan with him.

Kawhi in the championship year took 55% of his shots either from 3 or at the rim, and just 15% from floater and 19% from midrange.

SGA last year took 28% from floater and 25% from midrange, and this year the distribution is 24%/25%. He has increased his 3P volume and share, but unlike Kawhi he isnt a near 40% shooter from deep.

 

[str8line]

Second Key stint, comes in at 3:23 in 3rd with score at 91-89. By possession touches:

1. His man throws ball into backcourt over Key's outstretched arms. OKC turnover
2. Gets nicely wide open for a missed 3-attempt.
3. Beautiful juking drive through defenders but gets blocked from behind
4. Gets wide open on a nice give and go with Lauri but Lauri makes a bad pass back to him, no shot attempt
5. Nice pass to extra wide open Fonz for a 3 miss. At this point we're down 98-95
6. Very nice D on driving OKC player resulting in out of bounds turnover
7. Give and go with Collins, gets stripped on drive, turnover
8. Gets scored on, mid-range jumper, not very good D. First points he's directly given up in the game.
9. Great feed to JC who misses a very make-able layup

That's it, score is 109-102, Key goes out of game at 9:15 left in 4th.

So Key gave up one basket total and his defense was good. He had some nice passes that weren't converted on. Had two turnovers. Missed a couple tough shots.

 

[Tremendous Upside]

Eh, this isn't the 90s. It worked on Shaq because Shaq got the ball, a lot and hacking him was better than being dunked on.

No. Shaq was regularly hacked far away from the basket. The point was to put him on the line, wait for him to miss (as he would regularly do), and then get the ball back for another offensive possession.

That **** wears you down. Basketball is a rhythm game, and taking a team out of its rhythm by making a terrible FT shooter march to the stripe again and again is a great way to get an advantage.

 

[fishonjazz]

Let's just say I'll take my chances. Putting Kessler on the line is the worst outcome in crunch time, where you need to be in control of the ball as much as possible. OKC was shooting lights out. They knew that if they cut our possession short by hacking Walker, they had a good chance of coming out as the winner of that exchange and putting us away. It's about control.


No it didn't. It removed the chance to make a high-scoring play and gave OKC that chance instead.

It also removed the chance to run more clock and have zero scoring play.

And again, that one point was way way way down the list of reasons we lost. You are being silly.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Can you come up with a comp of a guy carrying his team anywhere in playoffs with midrange based game from past 15 years? I just cannot think of anyone.

I mean DeRozan is the best midrange guy I could think of since Kobe, but he hasnt really carried his teams in the postseason. Even that one year when Raptors went to the ECF with him he had pretty bad playoff stats and wasnt their top scorer for most games. Then after they traded him for a modern wing in Kawhi they immediately won the chip.

SGA is both special and elite for sure (and better than DeRozan has ever been), but I'm not 100% sold on him being #1 in a championship team just because he looks too much like a throwback player.

Kawhi, Book, Jokic, KD…

A lot of their work is done in the midrange. OKC has the number 1 half court offense. SGA gets it from everywhere too. If there was a playoff only draft with the whole league I bet he’d be top 5-7. He’s good enough to be that guy. I worry more about rebounding and the supporting players than SGA.