Should #47 hang from the rafters at ESA

[jimmy eat jazz]

If you have no problem with them then your answer for AK should be yes. AK contributed more to this franchise than Hornacek or Griffeth did in their playing career. Hornacek was Steve Kerr for the Jazz. Is Kerr hanging in the rafters of the Bulls? It's not enough for me. The only Jersey's that I feel should be hanging are Stockton, Malone, AD, Maravich and Sloan.

I forgot about Layden's after coaching contributions. However if he is there should KOC be?

I disagree. Hornacek was a key contributor to the Jazz's two title runs. He was what finally got them over the hump. That's a hell of a lot more than Kerr ever contributed who was never more than a role player (although he did hit some big shots at crucial times). Hornacek played a role similar to, say, James Worthy--not the #1 or #2 person but clearly a core member and contributor (not saying he was the equal of Worthy). Kerr was more like the Michael Cooper, Kurt Rambis type.

Griffith was the first 'star' that Jazz had in their early NBA days. He, along with Dantley in their times, were the top players on the team who helped make the Jazz a relevant competitive team instead consigning them to perpetual Timberwolves/Clippers status. AK was a role player, and a woefully under achieving one at that. The number of role players who did not come close to realizing their potential should not be hanging from the rafters. (I do agree, however, that Eaton does not deserve to have his number retired--he was the quintessential role player.)

 

[MVP]

Then who is?

If he isn't even the best guy on his team there what would make you think he is a top NBA player?

Your blind love of all things AK keeps you from seeing reality.

And again I wonder, are you a jazz fan or just an AK fan?

They play team basketball, one day is Kristic, next day is Teodosic, other day is AK or Khryapa. They do not run their game through one player, that's the beauty of team basketball.
I never said he is top NBA player.
I like AK but not to the point where you should call it blind.
And again I started cheering for Jazz way before AK was even drafted. 1996 to be exact.

 

[Grandpa Jazz]

Also, I'm not sure I understand your purpose. You first say that you just want to know everyone's opinion, then you go after anyone who expresses an opinion different form yours.

Jimmy eat Jazz, I do want to know peoples feelings on this question, but i also stated that i was for it. bringing out valid points in favor of my point of view is not going after people. However, i did go after a few who in my view crossed the line of civility and posted crude and mean spirited things about a person they don't even know and never met. We have way to much of that attitude in our society.

Amazed to find people calling Kirilenko "soft". What is their definition of soft. Anyone with eyes could see that he ran the floor, hustled, dived on the floor for loose balls, etc. He was not a strong powerful inside force, he was agile. But soft? I dont see it. Because he cried ? He simply cared.

The above paragraph is what i would call a reasoned attempt to persuade someone to my point of view. Calling the man a " pimple on the Jazz ***" (not an exact quote) and then saying nothing else is just sophomoric attitude which says " if you dont see this as i do you are ****. This attitude is pervasive in our world (not just our country) and polarizes everyone on every facet of life. Politically, socially, religiously, everywhere. When people act like that when discussing basketball, well, it just depresses me.

Off my soap box!

 

[enchilada_style]

Jimmy eat Jazz, I do want to know peoples feelings on this question, but i also stated that i was for it. bringing out valid points in favor of my point of view is not going after people. However, i did go after a few who in my view crossed the line of civility and posted crude and mean spirited things about a person they don't even know and never met. We have way to much of that attitude in our society.

Amazed to find people calling Kirilenko "soft". What is their definition of soft. Anyone with eyes could see that he ran the floor, hustled, dived on the floor for loose balls, etc. He was not a strong powerful inside force, he was agile. But soft? I dont see it. Because he cried ? He simply cared.

The above paragraph is what i would call a reasoned attempt to persuade someone to my point of view. Calling the man a " pimple on the Jazz ***" (not an exact quote) and then saying nothing else is just sophomoric attitude which says " if you dont see this as i do you are ****. This attitude is pervasive in our world (not just our country) and polarizes everyone on every facet of life. Politically, socially, religiously, everywhere. When people act like that when discussing basketball, well, it just depresses me.

Off my soap box!

What a mother ****ing buzz kill, son.

 

[Grandpa Jazz]

What a mother ****ing buzz kill, son.

tonstermits, What? I need an interpreter. I am legitimately an old man who is out of touch with a lot of today's vernacular. Really do care what you think so would you care to explain to me what you said ?

Okay. Grandpa can google so he now knows the meaning of buzz kill.

 

[The Thriller]

hell no.

If we did, then why wouldn't we retire Dwill, Boozer, chris Morris, Ostertag, and CJ?

 

[One Brow]

As a point of comparison: Millsap plays this season and four more. In tha time, we get back tot he WCF, but not to the Championship series. How many of supporting Kirilenko will also think Millsap should have a banner, and how many not supporting Kirilenko will also say Millsap is not worthy? Will that be based on numbers, or just how much you like the players?

 

[LogGrad98]

If you have no problem with them then your answer for AK should be yes. AK contributed more to this franchise than Hornacek or Griffeth did in their playing career. Hornacek was Steve Kerr for the Jazz. Is Kerr hanging in the rafters of the Bulls? It's not enough for me. The only Jersey's that I feel should be hanging are Stockton, Malone, AD, Maravich and Sloan.

I forgot about Layden's after coaching contributions. However if he is there should KOC be?

Just go to YouTube and watch highlights of Hornacek and Kerr and tell me you can rally compare the 2. The fact that Kerr is your comparison tells me you have no clue. I don't remember Kerr being the second option on 2 finals runs. Did you ever even watch either of them play? Hornacek was more than twice the player Kerr ever was. Wow.

 

[Grandpa Jazz]

How many of supporting Kirilenko will also think Millsap should have a banner, and how many not supporting Kirilenko will also say Millsap is not worthy? Will that be based on numbers, or just how much you like the players?

Paul's ( Paul is first name, not last) story has not been told in it's entirety. When it has, i fervently hope everyone will want Paul's banner flying high. That wish is based on both of your criteria.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Just go to YouTube and watch highlights of Hornacek and Kerr and tell me you can rally compare the 2. The fact that Kerr is your comparison tells me you have no clue. I don't remember Kerr being the second option on 2 finals runs. Did you ever even watch either of them play? Hornacek was more than twice the player Kerr ever was. Wow.

.

 

[vslice02]

Just go to YouTube and watch highlights of Hornacek and Kerr and tell me you can rally compare the 2. The fact that Kerr is your comparison tells me you have no clue. I don't remember Kerr being the second option on 2 finals runs. Did you ever even watch either of them play? Hornacek was more than twice the player Kerr ever was. Wow.

This.

I forgot about Layden's after coaching contributions. However if he is there should KOC be?

What? "After coaching contributions"?? Layden's honored more for his pre-coaching contributions and mid-80's head coaching contributions. He established the Jazz in Utah. If Kevin O'Connor never came along, something tells me the Jazz would still be in Salt Lake City.

 

[JazzGenius]

Yes! They should retire his jersey! Andrei was a great Jazz man!

 

[gregbroncs]

Just go to YouTube and watch highlights of Hornacek and Kerr and tell me you can rally compare the 2. The fact that Kerr is your comparison tells me you have no clue. I don't remember Kerr being the second option on 2 finals runs. Did you ever even watch either of them play? Hornacek was more than twice the player Kerr ever was. Wow.

Kerr was a key piece on multiple Chicago titles. I love Hornacek as a player. I just don't think he should be hanging from the rafters.

 

[gregbroncs]

This.


What? "After coaching contributions"?? Layden's honored more for his pre-coaching contributions and mid-80's head coaching contributions. He established the Jazz in Utah. If Kevin O'Connor never came along, something tells me the Jazz would still be in Salt Lake City.

Frank Layden's career record as Jazz coach. 277 Wins, 294 Losses. Playoff record 18-23.

I was really young when Layden quit coaching the Jazz. But a losing record as coach does not scream put them in the rafters. I guess with his other contributions and his history with Larry it is understandable why he was put up there. I really hold a grudge against him for being the main reason it took so damn long to get AD up there.

That does not scream great coach to me. He was a decent coach not great. To be in the rafters you should be great.

 

[Deleted member 848]

Kerr was a key piece on multiple [titles].

So was Rob Horry. Hornacek was much more than a Rob, or a Kerr though. He's also still in the community to this day; don't have any sort of problem with the Jazz retiring his jersey whatsoever.

 

[Grandpa Jazz]

Layden's honored more for his pre-coaching contributions and mid-80's head coaching contributions. He established the Jazz in Utah.

Slow down vslice 02. He established the Jazz in Utah ? No, that would have been Sam Battistone ( a restraunt owner, a small chain called Sambo's i believe) who brought them here from the Big Easy and then sold them locally to i believe a group of people, and Larry Miller eventually ended up with the whole team. They established the team here not Frank. Frank was an assistant if i remember right with a couple years as an assistant in Atlanta and not much else. He proceeded to have a Really horrible record with what is remembered as no talent. Actually that first Jazz team had Adrian Dantley, Bernard King and Pete Maravich. Three monumental talents. He was not the head coach that season, Maravich was in his last days, King was accused by some unreliable bimbo (according to media reports) of sexual assault and was dealt. Leaving Dantley who seems to me to be poorly remembered here. He was easily the 2nd greatest scorer in Utah Jazz history. I actually believe he was the best scorer we had ever. Malone had longevity on him is all. If we had a similar talent right now, we would be a solid contender for a championship. All of these things lead to the Jazz making a home in Utah and staying here, not Frank. There is a legend growing around Utah about Frank and it is all Media myth. Nothing personal here against Frank Layden ( he seems a real decent guy), although he didn't like being Coach and didn't particularly like Basketball players. They were considered self centered Prima Donna's even then.
Anyone have a different course of events ? My memory is suspect.

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

The number of names that have been thrown around in this thread as contenders for having their number retired is absurd.

 

[vslice02]

Slow down vslice 02. He established the Jazz in Utah ? No, that would have been Sam Battistone ( a restraunt owner, a small chain called Sambo's i believe) who brought them here from the Big Easy and then sold them locally to i believe a group of people, and Larry Miller eventually ended up with the whole team. They established the team here not Frank. Frank was an assistant if i remember right with a couple years as an assistant in Atlanta and not much else. He proceeded to have a Really horrible record with what is remembered as no talent. Actually that first Jazz team had Adrian Dantley, Bernard King and Pete Maravich. Three monumental talents. He was not the head coach that season, Maravich was in his last days, King was accused by some unreliable bimbo (according to media reports) of sexual assault and was dealt. Leaving Dantley who seems to me to be poorly remembered here. He was easily the 2nd greatest scorer in Utah Jazz history. I actually believe he was the best scorer we had ever. Malone had longevity on him is all. If we had a similar talent right now, we would be a solid contender for a championship. All of these things lead to the Jazz making a home in Utah and staying here, not Frank. There is a legend growing around Utah about Frank and it is all Media myth. Nothing personal here against Frank Layden ( he seems a real decent guy), although he didn't like being Coach and didn't particularly like Basketball players. They were considered self centered Prima Donna's even then.
Anyone have a different course of events ? My memory is suspect.

Frank Layden established the Jazz as a successful NBA franchise in Utah.

-Battistone was from California and the move to SLC was initially viewed as a temporary one until a California-based market opened up and he could gain the approval of fellow owners (who in the late 70's wanted the prime markets to go to expansion teams rather than existing teams). Also Battistone only owned half the team, and after arrivingin Utah the other half was sold to the Bagley family (who were responsible for experimenting with the Jazz playing a portion of their home games in Las Vegas). The Jazz were hemorraging money until 1983 (in '82 they had to trade the draft rights of Dominique Wilkins for $1 million just to stay solvent). 1983 was actually the first year the franchise turned in a profit. Layden was instrumental in 83-84 as both coach (coach of year) and GM (within 4 years he had built a young core by trading Spencer Haywood to the Lakers for Adrian Dantley, then drafting Darrell Griffith, Ricky Green, Mark Eaton (4th-rnd) and Thurl Bailey). Utah advanced to the 2nd-round of the playoffs in 1983-84, then drafted Stockton and Malone in the following two seasons and they were off and running.

Layden was part-coach, part-GM, and part entertainer/comedian. Fans initially came to Jazz games just to watch him coach. He had a sub-.500 overall record because of the first 1 1/2 years when Utah had little talent, but the Jazz eventually went 21 consecutive seasons without a losing record, and Layden was responsible for the first 5 of those. If Layden doesn't establish the Jazz as a suprise playoff team, the circumstances around Larry Miller's first purchase of the team are entirely different and you could argue LHM doesn't go through with it.

It's not like the entire organization and community got it wrong. Frank Layden made an enormous impact on the Utah Jazz and deserved to be honored for it.


Back to Hornacek's #14 hanging from the rafters - Hornacek was the "missing piece" that took Utah to the brink of a championship, and it's quite common to see other teams retire jerseys of beloved role players like Jeff.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Totally for Horny. Seriously.

 

[Grandpa Jazz]

vslice02 - You dug out the details and i agree with almost everything you wrote. My aim was to show that Frank was not as he sometimes is portrayed as some kind of savior for the Jazz and the reason they succeeded here. He is/was the proverbial "Face of the Franchise" because the team was bad and he provided comic relief. He was the head coach during their formative years, nothing more.

the move to SLC was initially viewed as a temporary one

In some circles, it still is regarded as only temporary ? Some people just can't believe that an NBA franchise can do well in this hot bed of religious fanaticism in the middle of nowhere (Their view, not mine). So, that it was
initially" viewed that way on a national ( media, even our own ) level is no surprise. Without getting all existential about this nothing is forever (ask Sonic fans).

It's not like the entire organization and community got it wrong. Frank Layden made an enormous impact on the Utah Jazz and deserved to be honored for it.

Never said he should not be honored! I don't believe hanging some made up jersey from the rafters is appropriate however. I see that as being for players only. Frank was, and still is to a degree a visible presence in SLC, a reminder of the Jazz past. But he is not the reason they are still miraculously playing games in SLC , not even close. This Does not mean that he did not play a part in that result.

I have a high degree of respect for your posts vslice02 and i don't believe they we are really far apart at all ideologically. I was winging it from memories and impressions from long ago and you dug out details which crystallized my comments. By the way i loved another posters suggestion about putting some Sloan-isms (plaques perhaps) around ESA as a way of honoring Jerry Sloan. This is appropriate and could be applied to Frank also. What do you think ?