Disgruntled Kessler?

[fishonjazz]

It always surprised me that so many folks here think that Kessler did not get enough minutes. He finished the season with 23.3 and the only reason why he did not reach 24-25 minutes was because he left his last game early with injury and did not play in the last games of the season when young players were given heavy minutes.

Lets compare him with other good but not great centers in the league: Valanciunus - 23 min, Gafford - 24 min, Hartenstein - 25 min, Capela - 26 min, Poeltl - 26 min, Zubac - 26 min. Kessler is right there with them in terms of both the impact and minutes. To get 30 minutes or more as a center you should be among the very best in the league: only 8 players played that much this season. Kessler is getting exactly the minutes he deserves.

People complained that Keyonte is the golden boy and getting way more playing time than he should - and he got only 27mpg, 3 more minutes than Kessler.

Its more about giving Collins more minutes than kessler when we are tanking and trying to develop young guys for the long term. Also about the jazz being the worst defensive team in the league. Also about how the team seemed to play better with kessler on the court at the 5 than collins. (collins was 20th out of 21 players for the jazz in plus/minus for instance. Keyonte was the only player who was worse. BPM had kessler 5th and collins 8th. Kessler had a higher PER. Kessler had a higher VORP. Kessler with more win shares per 48.)

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Its more about giving Collins more minutes than kessler when we are tanking and trying to develop young guys for the long term. Also about the jazz being the worst defensive team in the league. Also about how the team seemed to play better with kessler on the court at the 5 than collins. (collins was 20th out of 21 players for the jazz in plus/minus for instance. Keyonte was the only player who was worse. BPM had kessler 5th and collins 8th. Kessler had a higher PER. Kessler had a higher VORP. Kessler with more win shares per 48.)

And its all of this plus the guy is establishing his value and trying to get paid... so yanking him around may be seen as messing with his money. Its also hard when you see Keyonte struggling and them living with it and having a high tolerance vs how he and others might be treated.

I'm sure there is also a little friction between front office, Hardy, and the Collins situation that has to be managed. Like if Will decides to bench Collins and play him 20 minutes that likely HAS to work well or Ainge and the front office are like "what are you doing to our $80M man". Walker wasn't so good that they couldn't ignore him though (like Collin was) so he definitely gets a heap of the blame.

 

[jazznik]

Its more about giving Collins more minutes than kessler when we are tanking and trying to develop young guys for the long term. Also about the jazz being the worst defensive team in the league. Also about how the team seemed to play better with kessler on the court at the 5 than collins. (collins was 20th out of 21 players for the jazz in plus/minus for instance. Keyonte was the only player who was worse. BPM had kessler 5th and collins 8th. Kessler had a higher PER. Kessler had a higher VORP. Kessler with more win shares per 48.)

I think that you may be a bit too focused on Kessler and stats. Stats do not capture everything and Kessler is also not unique in having high advanced stats and providing a lot of defense. The same is true for Poeltl (26 MPG), Zubac ( 26 MPG), Hartenstein (25 MPG), Valanciunas (23 MPG) and many other centers. You may think that there is a league-wide conspiracy in denying highly productive centers their obviously-deserved 30+ minutes of playing time. Or, you can come to the conclusion that coaches learned from their experience and collectively decided that good traditional centers have the best impact on the game if you play them 24-27 minutes. Unless they are at least on the level of Lopez, Gobert or Porzingis. Or, unless your team is as horrible as Detroit and plays their young guys into the ground not caring about anything.

 

[fishonjazz]

I think that you may be a bit too focused on Kessler and stats. Stats do not capture everything and Kessler is also not unique in having high advanced stats and providing a lot of defense. The same is true for Poeltl (26 MPG), Zubac ( 26 MPG), Hartenstein (25 MPG), Valanciunas (23 MPG) and many other centers. You may think that there is a league-wide conspiracy in denying highly productive centers their obviously-deserved 30+ minutes of playing time. Or, you can come to the conclusion that coaches learned from their experience and collectively decided that good traditional centers have the best impact on the game if you play them 24-27 minutes. Unless they are at least on the level of Lopez, Gobert or Porzingis. Or, unless your team is as horrible as Detroit and plays their young guys into the ground not caring about anything.

Could be. Could be that Hardy should have been playing kessler more too. But maybe playing Kessler more would have made our draft pick worse. Idk
We all have opinions.

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[sip]

I think that you may be a bit too focused on Kessler and stats. Stats do not capture everything and Kessler is also not unique in having high advanced stats and providing a lot of defense. The same is true for Poeltl (26 MPG), Zubac ( 26 MPG), Hartenstein (25 MPG), Valanciunas (23 MPG) and many other centers. You may think that there is a league-wide conspiracy in denying highly productive centers their obviously-deserved 30+ minutes of playing time. Or, you can come to the conclusion that coaches learned from their experience and collectively decided that good traditional centers have the best impact on the game if you play them 24-27 minutes. Unless they are at least on the level of Lopez, Gobert or Porzingis. Or, unless your team is as horrible as Detroit and plays their young guys into the ground not caring about anything.

Those guys aren't development players though. Kessler is a 2nd year guy who by Hardy's own words needs as much court time as possible yet he limited his minutes. That makes no sense when you consider the fact that we were totally focused on player development after the trade deadline.

 

[jazznik]

I don't want to dump on Kessler - I actually like him a lot and want him on the team. But he does have many shortcomings besides not having a 3-pointer and much of offense. Collins is far from being the ideal centers but... Kessler can't pass. Kessler can't grab a defensive rebound and dribble to start a fast break. Walter is afraid to get fouled so he does not fight for the offensive rebounds with the same ferocity as Collins. He also cannot push and make something happen when others struggle. Walter requires a skilled point guard to set him up with precise passes. Finally, he sometimes has trouble maintaining the intensity and disappears for long stretches.

In short, Kessler is a tough fit for many lineups from the perspective of a coach. You can plug Collins in many more situations and matchups. Coaches love versatile players. Of course, coaches can also build effective schemes for players with severe limitations, but you better be absolutely amazing at what you are good so that they may start assembling the team around you and develop specific game plan to hide your bad. Is Kessler that amazing?

 

[SoberasHotRod]

The off season just started and it's already unbearable.

 

[sip]

I don't want to dump on Kessler - I actually like him a lot and want him on the team. But he does have many shortcomings besides not having a 3-pointer and much of offense. Collins is far from being the ideal centers but... Kessler can't pass. Kessler can't grab a defensive rebound and dribble to start a fast break. Walter is afraid to get fouled so he does not fight for the offensive rebounds with the same ferocity as Collins. He also cannot push and make something happen when others struggle. Walter requires a skilled point guard to set him up with precise passes. Finally, he sometimes has trouble maintaining the intensity and disappears for long stretches.

In short, Kessler is a tough fit for many lineups from the perspective of a coach. You can plug Collins in many more situations and matchups. Coaches love versatile players. Of course, coaches can also build effective schemes for players with severe limitations, but you better be absolutely amazing at what you are good so that they may start assembling the team around you and develop specific game plan to hide your bad. Is Kessler that amazing?

You basically just described a young player that needs consistent minutes to get experience and gain confidence. Now if you are competing for a championship you may not want to commit those minutes because growing pains will cost you but for a rebuilding team those growing pains should have been embraced.

 

[jazznik]

You basically just described a young player that needs consistent minutes to get experience and gain confidence. Now if you are competing for a championship you may not want to commit those minutes because growing pains will cost you but for a rebuilding team those growing pains should have been embraced.

You think that 23 MPG (which would be 24-25 minutes if Kessler did not get hurt) is not enough for the development? How many does he need? 27 or 28? Do you think that these extra 3-4 minutes would make such a big difference? Because very, very few teams play their development bigs for 30 minutes or more - and there must be a reason for that.

 

[fishonjazz]

Those guys aren't development players though. Kessler is a 2nd year guy who by Hardy's own words needs as much court time as possible yet he limited his minutes. That makes no sense when you consider the fact that we were totally focused on player development after the trade deadline.

Also we literally had the worst defense in the league

Kessler is literally one of the best defensive players in the league.

On top of what you posted. It was weird

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[TheGoldStandard]

Team USA seemed to hurt Kessler's confidence. In hindsight, he should have stayed home and worked on hand strength, a midrange game and FT shooting. Instead he came in thinking he could shoot corner 3s and clearly he was not.

He needs to see this offseason as an opportunity, hopefully he makes the most of it.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

You think that 23 MPG (which would be 24-25 minutes if Kessler did not get hurt) is not enough for the development? How many does he need? 27 or 28? Do you think that these extra 3-4 minutes would make such a big difference? Because very, very few teams play their development bigs for 30 minutes or more - and there must be a reason for that.

People make the craziest excuses for Kessler

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Kessler needs to touch a boob

 

[UpArrow]

Feel like we have botched whatever we are doing with him. Saying he will play Summer League is completely insulting.

Hell naw. The kids trade value would be low right now and him having a 6 year NBA career is 50/50 at best.
He needs the work and the humility.

 

[UpArrow]

Kessler needs to touch a boob

That might spur his test-icles to drop so yeah.

 

[sip]

You think that 23 MPG (which would be 24-25 minutes if Kessler did not get hurt) is not enough for the development? How many does he need? 27 or 28? Do you think that these extra 3-4 minutes would make such a big difference? Because very, very few teams play their development bigs for 30 minutes or more - and there must be a reason for that.

Once KO was traded and we clearly weren't trying to compete for the play in I wanted to see him starting and playing at least 30 minutes a game. Give him all the leash in the world when it doesn't matter and see if he can gain that confidence back.

 

[Hearsky]

Kessler needs to touch a boob

Mom says "Hi".

 

[Shad]

I'd trade Walker for Edey straight up

 

[HermanG]

Once KO was traded and we clearly weren't trying to compete for the play in I wanted to see him starting and playing at least 30 minutes a game. Give him all the leash in the world when it doesn't matter and see if he can gain that confidence back.

So a player who is playing bad in his own opinion and sulking about it (including on the court) should get more minutes?

Come on now. That sets a terrible culture and is way more likely to make the issue worse than to help it.

I also dont know how you justify those minutes to the rest of the team, including those who lose theirs.

 

[Brian Peppers]

20%? Based om what data points? Using the following formula show the odds and no greater than 12.62% (rounded)

View attachment 16274

You know they say that all men are created equal, but you look at John Collins and you look at Walker Kessler you can see that statement is not true. See, normally if you go one on one with another center, you got a 50/50 chance of playing time. But John Collins is a genetic freak and he’s not normal! So you got a 25%, AT BEST, at Walker getting his playing time due to this.

Then you add Will Hardy to the mix, his chances of playing drastic go down. See with a log jam, created and Hardy coaching. Walker got a 33 1/3 chance of playing, but Collins.. Collins got a 66 and 2/3 chance of playing, because Will Hardy KNOWS he can't bench him so he’s not even gonna try!

So Walker Kessler, you take your 33 1/3 chance, minus Collins’ 25% chance and you got an 8 1/3 chance of playing time. But then you take Collins’ 75% chance of playing, if he was to be the starter, and then add 66 2/3 percents, then Collins’ got 141 2/3 chance of playing once Danny made the trade. Coach realized that the numbers don't lie, and they spelled disaster for Walker since training camp.