Finnisher or Limmiter

[HermanG]

Lots of really good, thoughtful responses that were a pleasure to read. Thank you all guys for that. I want to clarify few things. Of course, Lauri is helping the Jazz right now : he is a very good player. I was talking more about turning the Jazz into a contender and that is why I looked at rosters of the current contenders. Almost all of them have two offensive forces that can also be playmakers. Sometimes you can get away with your second option not being a great playmaker but then they have to be an awesome defender like AD. Lauri is none of that: all he brings is scoring.

He IS similar in that to KAT, Porzingis and (a bit less but still) Thompson. And all of these players could not cut it as a legit second option on a contender: the teams needed to have a third all-star to cover their deficiencies by bringing playmaking or defense. Lauri is a poor second option, but he is an awesome third option. When you have two stars who are both scorers and playmakers you can start filling out the roster with role players (that what Dallas is doing right now). When you have someone like Lauri, Porzingis or KAT you still need to find another star to become a contender.

Building around Lauri simply requires adding two more star pieces instead of one and this would be very difficult to pull out even for Ainge. Instead of one successful trade you will need two, or scoring big in both trades and drafting.

I see your point and it is a good one. You do need 2 ball handlers with the ability to facilitate.

However they dont need to be you #1 and #2. They can very well be #1 and #3. And either Sexton or Keyonte could very well be/become that #3 (or #2).

Just for reference... the guy Lauri gets compared to most often (Dirk) averaged 2.6 assists in their championship year and 2.4 as career average (career high being 3.5).

So again. I dont think the bar is 5+ for him. And I'm pretty sure if he finds a great partner to run effective 2 man game with he will increase his assists easily. After all, from Jamal Murrays 384 total assists this season 151 have gone to Jokic.

 

[jazznik]

I see your point and it is a good one. You do need 2 ball handlers with the ability to facilitate.

However they dont need to be you #1 and #2. They can very well be #1 and #3. And either Sexton or Keyonte could very well be/become that #3 (or #2).

Just for reference... the guy Lauri gets compared to most often (Dirk) averaged 2.6 assists in their championship year and 2.4 as career average (career high being 3.5).

The example with Dirk is a good one! I think that 15-30 years ago playmaking was thought as almost exclusively coming from guards who were setting up bigs for their attack. And I also think that this has changed by now. Now almost every team has a playmaking big who can penetrate, collapse the defense and then kick out to an open teammate. Giannis, Embiid, LeBron, Sabonis, Jokic...even Randle!

And yes, you can try to compensate for lacking it by having the playmaking to come from somewhere else but this requires more money spent/more draft luck and still does not fully compensate for your star not being able to playmake. If Lauri was a good playmaker or at least a defensive force we could reasonably hope that all that we need is one more star. Instead, we will have to go the way of the Timberwolves who have a similar situation with KAT: they had to still find a defensive and a passing All-Star to become competitive.

If the Jazz commit max money to Lauri they simply would be buying a one-dimensional star. It is a bit of a repeat of commiting the max money to another one-dimensional star, Gobert. It looks good and necessary at the time but really restricts your options down the road and puts a hard ceiling on how good your team could be. Again, remember the Mitchell-Gobert Jazz?

 

[SoberasHotRod]

I just want the Jazz to get good players who are complementary to each other. That's all I'm personally worried about right now.

 

[jazznik]

I just want the Jazz to get good players who are complementary to each other. That's all I'm personally worried about right now.

Then you should be really concerned with Lauri. He is not a good fit with Kessler and Hendrix who need good passes to set them up - Lauri is not good at passing. He is also not a good fit with our guards and wings: Keyonte, Sexton, Clarkson and Brice are poor defenders and need a good big behind them to clean up their mistakes and Lauri is at best average at defense.

Lauri is a great fit with an imaginary superstar who is not on the Jazz roster, though.

 

[HermanG]

The example with Dirk is a good one! I think that 15-30 years ago playmaking was thought as almost exclusively coming from guards who were setting up bigs for their attack. And I also think that this has changed by now. Now almost every team has a playmaking big who can penetrate, collapse the defense and then kick out to an open teammate. Giannis, Embiid, LeBron, Sabonis, Jokic...even Randle!

And yes, you can try to compensate for lacking it by having the playmaking to come from somewhere else but this requires more money spent/more draft luck and still does not fully compensate for your star not being able to playmake. If Lauri was a good playmaker or at least a defensive force we could reasonably hope that all that we need is one more star. Instead, we will have to go the way of the Timberwolves who have a similar situation with KAT: they had to still find a defensive and a passing All-Star to become competitive.

If the Jazz commit max money to Lauri they simply would be buying a one-dimensional star. It is a bit of a repeat of commiting the max money to another one-dimensional star, Gobert. It looks good and necessary at the time but really restricts your options down the road and puts a hard ceiling on how good your team could be. Again, remember the Mitchell-Gobert Jazz?

Assists per game were 20% lower back in 2011 but FGA were also 10% so part of it is increased pace. Biggest difference is in 3PA which were almost 50% lower (18.0 then vs 35.1). And that is Lauris biggest strength.

So even if his passing is short of ideal, it is rather silly to argue that difference is big enough to mean he doesnt fit a modern championship core as a 7 foot sharpshooter with 50/40/90 splits and near league leading PPP efficiency and low turnover rate (while playing with subpar supporting cast).

He isnt a #1, but is fine as your 2nd best player.

 

[underdog]

Then you should be really concerned with Lauri. He is not a good fit with Kessler and Hendrix who need good passes to set them up - Lauri is not good at passing. He is also not a good fit with our guards and wings: Keyonte, Sexton, Clarkson and Brice are poor defenders and need a good big behind them to clean up their mistakes and Lauri is at best average at defense.

Lauri is a great fit with an imaginary superstar who is not on the Jazz roster, though.

With your posts in this thread you seem to be living in a tunnel with your assist counting and disregarding other skills that players like Lauri/Dirk bring/brought. Like you had decided that we need move Lauri and then you try to dig out shaky arguments to back it up.

 

[Tanktastic]

My head almost exploded starting to read this thread but then thankfully @KqWIN put out the fuse. Thanks.