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On the 47% who don't pay taxes

We've been through all this before.

As British subjects we had global cartels that created cash cows to beat the band. The British Far East Trading Company was a legalized dope operation and the biggest depositor in Eupopean banks, which Kings listened to. The bankers themselves had quite a racket in financing both sides in great wars, and always had the government tax revenuers bringing the peasants' cash in to pay all the interest. The feudal lords managed the peasants and kept them in debt to them as well.

When the international cartel folks wanted to secure monopolies on American trade or merchants, they got the King to impose taxes, and send tax collectors, and refused to let competitor ships dock and unload, and shut down local manufacture. It was a "great" time in world history, just like today. European nations were making colonies of the rest of the world, and bringing all the stuff home to enable the posh excesses of high society at home. Those who were "The 1%" did very well.

It financed the industrial revolution as well. International trade was where it was at. The BFETC took American cotton to England, where the mills had abundant cheap labor from the oppressed peasant hordes and used machinery to compound their advantages to make cloth and clothing for sale all over the world. They took the cheap stuff to India, and undercut local cotton and clothing producers. When the farmers couldn't get a good price for cotton, the British got them to produce opium, which the BFETC loaded on their boats and took to China, and traded for silk and other stuff. On the way back to England, the ships stopped on the coasts of Africa and loaded up with slaves, and headed for the West Indies and the South. As if all this profitable business just wasn't enough, they had to keep the French, the Dutch, and the Spanish from undercutting their prices in the Colonies.

The British and French fought over lucrative fur trade with the Indians, and competed for influence with them. On every front the Americans were being hemmed in, and restricted, and taxed.

The colonies revolted, and with French helped them win their bid for independence. Later, the constitutional congress met, at first primary because of continued British efforts at exploiting American trade, and among all their other innovations, chose to protect their independence with a unified tariff system. It was a stroke of genius actually. And it is what made American independence thrive. We were able to develop our own productive enterprises, manufactures, and use our own resouces to advantage. Our "Alliance with none, Commerce with all" foreign policy enabled us to develop our own trading relations all around the world.

Our present involvement in World governance schemes dominated by international cartels and other sorts of elites is the reason why we are failing now.

Abolish the income tax, and tax the cartels, and create the conditions that will favor competitors to challenge the biggies. Consumers would pay higher prices for stuff, initially, but in the long run we will get better prices if we break up the monopolites. And we would reduce the influence of lobbyists and fat cat contributors to politicians.
 
So you still didn't answer the question, which says a lot about your position. But you did a fine job of setting up a thinly veiled ad hominem.

I was not aware you intended it as a serious question, either. Please forgive my oversight.

Does being in the upper 20% make one evil or somehow less of a person than being in the other 80%?

No, being in the upper 20% does not make you evil or somehow less of a person.

Also why is it a terrible thing for people to want to actually keep what they have earned?

There is nothing wrong with wanting to keep what you have earned, per se.

Better now?

But you did a fine job of setting up a thinly veiled ad hominem.

While appreciate the compliment, an ad hominem would have been a claim that your arguments are untrustworthy because of some trait of yours. I don't believe I have ever claimed that who you are as aperson makes an argument of yours untrustworthy.

Interesting how many people around here think that to be independent you always have to show zero leaning, or at least are required to lean left on every single topic.

I don't think that, but "independent" does have a connotation within politics, and it goes beyond "is not exclusively loyal to a party". No one describes the Tea Party nor Occupy Wall Street as independents, but they are "independent" by the definition you have used to justify that label for yourself.

Personally, I use independent for people who lean strongly left on some issues, and strongly right on others. Do you see yourself that way? On what issues do you think you are strongly left?

And if you really read cows post as being completely neutral and unbiased, it shows just how deep your own biases run.

Must I choose between "neutral and unbiased" and claims that he meant people were "evil" and "terrible? Perhaps I have some alternate notion on cowhide's not represented by those choices? To be clear, I find either characterization of his post inaccurate.
 
Or mentally disturbed. Or suffered a debilitatiing illness early in their life. Or being severly disfigured. Or stayed home ot raise the their children, and then found themselves widoweded/divorced without adequate resources. Or found themselves on the wrong street corner on the wrong day with the wrong skin color, and are now limited by a criminal history. Or living in the remote Applachian mountains or various small towns. Other than that, and probagbly a dozen other things if I really thought hard about it. It[s probagbly better just to say "lazy", then you won't have to cogitate on the remarkable amount of luck that goes into being a self-made man.

I find it completely disrespectful to lump a lot of these people into a group that includes the unmotivated, lazy, criminal, and chronically bad decision makers. We owe them more respect than lumping them into the rich-poor discussion as fodder to serve our agendas. We're all better off discussing each collection of situations individually and personally so we can craft legislation that actually impacts them in a meaningful way.

FWIW, I haven't heard of anyone discussing SS overhaul talking about taking living dependents or the disabled off the roles.


Yet, you would agree, not the current middle class as a whole is going bankrupt, but that the numbers in the middle class is shrinking as a percentage of the population, right? If so, even if the post is poorly phrased, you agree with what one I suspect the poster meant.

Not at all. On an individual level, I'd like to know what this persons excuse is, even though it's not a duplicate personality.

On the macro level, I'm not going to pretend to know what the correct percent of the population being middle class is. It's a figure that cannot grow forever, and will wax and wane over time. Being a down year or decade isn't as troublesome to me as a chronic problem spiraling out of control. We are faced with a post-Lewis Turning Point era so the shrinking middle class seems inevitable. Let's see how we manage it to protect democracy.

I challenge anyone to come up with any meaningful measurement of declining standard of living that runs outside the last exceptional 2008-2010 years. I would be surprised if you found much inside those anyway. It's the complaints about standard of living by the left that bugs the hell out of me. How can we not appreciate the highest standard of living the world has ever seen?

If we talk in terms of a growing wealth divide affecting democracy then I'm all ears. I'm not so sure the problem isn't completely overblown, and I'm convinced the problem is highly driven by our own greed through government transfer payments. But when it comes to "taxing" the rich, I don't call it taxing at all. Taking back what they got appropriated for themselves through lobbyists and political connections is a wash for them, at worst.
 
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I find it completely disrespectful to lump a lot of these people into a group that includes the unmotivated, lazy, criminal, and chronically bad decision makers. We them more respect than lumping them into the rich-poor discussion as fodder to serve our agendas. We're all better off discussing each collection of situations individually and personally so we can craft legislation that actually impacts them in a meaningful way.

FWIW, I haven't heard of anyone discussing SS overhaul talking about taking living dependents or the disabled off the roles.




Not at all. On an individual level, I'd like to know what this persons excuse is, even though it's not a duplicate personality.

On the macro level, I'm not going to pretend to know what the correct percent of the population being middle class is. It's a figure that cannot grow forever, and will wax and wane over time. Being a down year or decade isn't as troublesome to me as a chronic problem spiraling out of control. We are faced with a post-Lewis Turning Point era so the shrinking middle class seems inevitable. Let's see how we manage it to protect democracy.

I challenge anyone to come up with any meaningful measurement of declining standard of living that runs outside the last exceptional 2008-2010 years. I would be surprised if you found much inside those anyway. It's the complaints about standard of living by the left that bugs the hell out of me. How can we not appreciate the highest standard of living the world has ever seen?

If we talk in terms of a growing wealth divide affecting democracy then I'm all ears. I'm not so sure the problem isn't completely overblown, and I'm convinced the problem is highly driven by our own greed through government transfer payments. But when it comes to "taxing" the rich, I don't call it taxing at all. Taking back what they got appropriated for themselves through lobbyists and political connections is a wash for them, at best.

"taking back" ill-gotten gains could be as simple as having a grand jury selected in a three-tier program. Supervisors selected from the general population, criminal law attorneys drawn from retired attorneys, and actual jurors drawn from licensed CPAs. Anybody perceiving some kind of payola/kickback/quid pro quo relation between lobbyists and legislators or judges or executive branch official, or any government agency officials and people with something to gain from their decisions could file a complaint. The CPAs would be given the task of getting the relevant records. Any simple cash transfer to the control of anyone in "public service" from any private interest would be illegal on the face of it all. And reciprocal benefit would require BOTH of the parties to repay the taxpayers ten times the amount paid, and render the benefit secured illegal. The vote cast/decision made would be invalidated. Two offenses would unseat a legislator and make him ineligible for life for public service. Bureaucratic officials, like those scum at the FDA would be fired and ineligible, for life, for re-hire or any other public job.

The "Supervisors" would be drawn randomly from the voter rolls, and serve for one year, paid three times their civilian income or twice the twice the median US income, whichever is more, and ineligible for second terms. They would review the work of the more profession types drawn from the retired licensed professionals, who also would serve short stints, say two years, at twice their retirement incomes. It's an honor to be drawn, and worth having no reason to be approachable by "suspects". If any of these is found by the "supervisors" to be double dealing on the public trust, they can be replaced. And lose their total pay.

I'm sure there are some details to work out here, but this is a general "No way are we going to stand for this corrupt government" statement.
 
I find it completely disrespectful to lump a lot of these people into a group that includes the unmotivated, lazy, criminal, and chronically bad decision makers.

So do I, yet they are still in the bottom 20%, and I was not the one that used a single adjective as a characteristic of the botttom 20%.

We're all better off discussing each collection of situations individually and personally so we can craft legislation that actually impacts them in a meaningful way.

I agree completely.

FWIW, I haven't heard of anyone discussing SS overhaul talking about taking living dependents or the disabled off the roles.

The disabled are not on the Social Security roles. Their funds are managed by the Social Security Administration, but come from a separate source, and the program is (IIRC) Supplemental Security Income. If you gut welfare overall, that will include SSI unless you specifically exampt it, and I'm not aware of any proposals that have.

If you reduce social Security payouts by, say 75%, that will reduce the payouts to living dependents unless you specifically craft legislation to make an exception. I have not heard of such legislation being proposed.

On the macro level, I'm not going to pretend to know what the correct percent of the population being middle class is. It's a figure that cannot grow forever, and will wax and wane over time. Being a down year or decade isn't as troublesome to me as a chronic problem spiraling out of control. We are faced with a post-Lewis Turning Point era so the shrinking middle class seems inevitable. Let's see how we manage it to protect democracy.

I agree it is a number that can not grow forever. The question then becomes, does the United have a number roughly in line with countries that have relatively stable societies, or with those that have less stable societies, and to what degree this number plays into that stability.

I challenge anyone to come up with any meaningful measurement of declining standard of living that runs outside the last exceptional 2008-2010 years. I would be surprised if you found much inside those anyway. It's the complaints about standard of living by the left that bugs the hell out of me. How can we not appreciate the highest standard of living the world has ever seen?

If we talk in terms of a growing wealth divide affecting democracy then I'm all ears. I'm not so sure the problem isn't completely overblown, and I'm convinced the problem is highly driven by our own greed through government transfer payments. But when it comes to "taxing" the rich, I don't call it taxing at all. Taking back what they got appropriated for themselves through lobbyists and political connections is a wash for them, at worst.

I agree these answers are never as simple as the soundbytes try to make them.

By the way, I really like your signature. You might add that he's also not endorsed by any of the Congress members who worked with him in the 1990s (which as far as I know is true).
 
All of these attitudes are the wrong attitudes to have. They are why the country is split and idiots like Gingrich and Obama are running the country. This countries problems are OUR problems. Not left, not right. Everybody's. In that light, EVERYONE should be giving and working towards making this better. EVERYONE. Now, not everyone can give the same, and that is fine. But EVERYONE should be investing something into making this better. The more people that are invested in the country, the more people will care, and the more people will elect worthy leaders.

Instead of uneducated people voting for someone because they found god, or are a certain race or gender, people will actually look at what each person stands for. Until everyone is invested, you will have 47% of the people that don't care enough to truly find out what they stand for, and these silly politics will continue.
 
Once people realize that the President of the United States isn't really responsible for ANYTHING, and that we could elect a corpse and nobody would know, the sooner we'll be able to fix our problems. Change will NEVER come from an elected president, but must come from the lowest level on up.
 
Well, I would disagree that President has no effect, but I agree that Presidents have less effect tham most people attribute to them.
 
Once people realize that the President of the United States isn't really responsible for ANYTHING, and that we could elect a corpse and nobody would know, the sooner we'll be able to fix our problems. Change will NEVER come from an elected president, but must come from the lowest level on up.

The biggest thing you should want from your president: Supreme Court Justices. That is why Obama has to lose, or this country is in trouble. There are potentially three Supreme Court Justices that will retire in the next four years. Could you imagine three more young, stupid, no-experienced, bad judgement Judges? That is the scary thing.
 
Could you imagine three more young, stupid, no-experienced, bad judgement Judges? That is the scary thing.

That description sums up recent Republican and recent Democratic judges. It's not a reason to prefer one party over the other.
 
Once people realize that the President of the United States isn't really responsible for ANYTHING, and that we could elect a corpse and nobody would know, the sooner we'll be able to fix our problems. Change will NEVER come from an elected president, but must come from the lowest level on up.

Only problem I have with this is that by the higher people get in power the higher the chance they become currupt in one way or another. That is more a view on people in general instead of your comment. I agree that just voting in more of what is offered to us will never change anything.
 
That description sums up recent Republican and recent Democratic judges. It's not a reason to prefer one party over the other.

My only concern is that they follow the US Constitution when making decisions. Not their ideology, heart or some letter written by a former president to a colleague.
 
I don't think Warren Buffet is hated by too many people.

Warren Buffett doesn't have the same tax rates as other people. One of the reasons he calls for income tax to be raised is because most of his money comes from dividends, which is already taxed less than income tax. Notice how he never calls for dividend tax to be raised.
 
Warren Buffett doesn't have the same tax rates as other people. One of the reasons he calls for income tax to be raised is because most of his money comes from dividends, which is already taxed less than income tax. Notice how he never calls for dividend tax to be raised.
I'm pretty sure it's implied that is what he is talking about if that is the tax he is paying. He said he pays a lower tax rate than his secretary and he didn't think that was fair. He didn't have to break it down into what each tax is labeled.

Bill Gates said the same thing too.
 
I'm pretty sure it's implied that is what he is talking about if that is the tax he is paying. He said he pays a lower tax rate than his secretary and he didn't think that was fair. He didn't have to break it down into what each tax is labeled.

Bill Gates said the same thing too.

Not breaking it down and being specific is how people weasel there way out of things.
 
Not breaking it down and being specific is how people weasel there way out of things.
He said he thinks he should pay more taxes, and that he currently pays a lower rate than his secretary. Period. He's not weaseling out of anything. The only people trying to weasel out of it are the ones saying "he didn't specifically say dividend taxes."
 
He said he thinks he should pay more taxes, and that he currently pays a lower rate than his secretary. Period. He's not weaseling out of anything. The only people trying to weasel out of it are the ones saying "he didn't specifically say dividend taxes."

Sorry, I should have clarified. I did not mean Buffet specifically. I was talking in general terms.

I just do not like when people do not get very specific on something they are advocating. That is how they find ways to weasel out when push comes to shove.
 
Sorry, I should have clarified. I did not mean Buffet specifically. I was talking in general terms.

I just do not like when people do not get very specific on something they are advocating. That is how they find ways to weasel out when push comes to shove.

I think it is pretty much understood that when they are saying the taxes on the rich need to be raised, capital gains/dividends/inheritance/corporate loopholes/income/any other way rich people make money are all under that umbrella.
 
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