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Kamala Harris for Pres

Overall, I don't think they're good and we can do without them. This isn't a moral argument, it's an economic one. If companies can't produce and survive without patents to protect them, they don't deserve to exist. We can incentivize R&D investment through other means if necessary.
Every industrialized country in the history of Earth has had a patent system, including Communist countries, because enforcement of intellectual property rights has proven absolutely essential to innovation and a functioning economy, even Marxist ones. Please enlighten us all on the detailed functioning of your better system than no one has ever thought to implement.

Also, "deserve" isn't an economic term. It is a term of moral judgement.
 
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Forget for a second that you don't like how the information was provided and simply look at the information.
What are your opinions about it? Do you think it's good that a really small amount of companies control such a large amount of food? Do you think that makes it harder or easier for there to be competition for consumers to seek out? Do you think anyone should try to do anything about the lack of competition?

But here, I will provide a link and Even copy and paste from the link for ya.
Consumer choice is largely an illusion – despite supermarket shelves and fridges brimming with different brands.

In fact, a few powerful transnational companies dominate every link of the food supply chain: from seeds and fertilizers to slaughterhouses and supermarkets to cereals and beers.

The size, power and profits of these mega companies have expanded thanks to political lobbying and weak regulation which enabled a wave of unchecked mergers and acquisitions. This matters because the size and influence of these mega-companies enables them to largely dictate what America’s 2 million farmers grow and how much they are paid, as well as what consumers eat and how much our groceries cost.

“It’s a system designed to funnel money into the hands of corporate shareholders and executives while exploiting farmers and workers and deceiving consumers about choice, abundance and efficiency,” said Amanda Starbuck, policy analyst at Food & Water Watch.

For instance, PepsiCo controls 88% of the dip market, as it owns five of the most popular brands including Tostitos, Lay’s and Fritos. Ninety-three per cent of the sodas we drink are owned by just three companies. The same goes for 73% of the breakfast cereals we eat – despite the shelves stacked with different boxes.


So now that you have been provided the information in a different way is ok for you to post your thoughts?


Tons of great information in article.

I know trump wants to get rid of regulation. Getting rid of regulations is what enabled a wave of unchecked mergers and acquisitions and helped create these monopolies.

I wish someone was trying to do something about this issue.

Sent from my CPH2451 using Tapatalk

Ok, I read the article, and now I'm more confused why you would have shared it. The premise seems to be that we should support smaller food producers, but wouldn't that just increase how much you pay for food? It doesn't really say why large food companies are bad and small ones are good for consumers except that big must equal bad and small must equal good. Having worked for both small and large food companies I can tell you there are advantages and disadvantages to both.

I didn't see any proof of price gouging in that article, in fact that wasn't really the focus. The main point was that we should have more choices, which is fine. The article didn't really get in to the reasons why large companies acquire small ones, or how that can sometimes be beneficial. It didn't talk about how companies create competitive advantages to become large in the first place. There is almost an inference that being big means you made a deal with the devil.

The one relevant section was on commodity price stickiness. I guess that is a way that we end up paying more than we should, but it's only temporary.

The other part I agree with is the low wages, for workers in the food industry being a problem. I'm not sure the best way to address that, but know it will definitely increase the cost of food.

I do think a lot of the stats in the article seemed credible, but just the conclusion that the stats led them to were suspect, at least for me.
 
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Do you know what a commodity is? It seems like people aren't quite grasping that part of this.

A little condescending, don't you think? Commodity markets aren't magically exempt from price shenanigans even if the econ101 textbook tells you they are. I'd say they are more resistant to it because of their fungibility and, of course, huge bargaining weight from buyers, something individual consumers don't have. Colloquially, people don't even use the economic definition of commodity anyways. It just means "stuff" to most people. Maybe you could try using "raw materials" or something like that.

It's beside the point since the main issue is on the consumer side. And yes, profit margins have gone up, unreasonably so in comparison to non-labor cost.

 
Every industrialized country in the history of Earth has had a patent system, including Communist countries, because enforcement of intellectual property rights has proven absolutely essential to innovation and a functioning economy, even Marxist ones. Please enlighten us all on the detailed functioning of your better system than no one has ever thought to implement.

Also, "deserve" isn't an economic term. It is a term of moral judgement.
Meh. I'm not concerned with your lack of imagination. The arguments against patents are many and compelling.

Thank you for the word choice policing. Feel free to use "aren't fit to survive" in place of of "deserve"
 
A little condescending, don't you think? Commodity markets aren't magically exempt from price shenanigans even if the econ101 textbook tells you they are. I'd say they are more resistant to it because of their fungibility and, of course, huge bargaining weight from buyers, something individual consumers don't have. Colloquially, people don't even use the economic definition of commodity anyways. It just means "stuff" to most people. Maybe you could try using "raw materials" or something like that.

It's beside the point since the main issue is on the consumer side. And yes, profit margins have gone up, unreasonably so in comparison to non-labor cost.


I apologize for coming off as condescending, your response to my post did not make sense to me with the understanding that commodities are based on supply and demand. The article you posted was not specific to the food industry, so I'm still looking for evidence that profit margins have risen dramatically in the food industry. I purposefully use the word dramatic because margins for the food industry are relatively low, so even if they rose a little, I wouldn't think that was a bad thing.
 
Meh. I'm not concerned with your lack of imagination. The arguments against patents are many and compelling.
Arguments against patents typically center on corruption of the system, and not the supposed moral virtue of abolishing intellectual property rights you propose. There is a reason no system like you are proposing has ever worked, EVER, for an industrialized economy.
 
I apologize for coming off as condescending, your response to my post did not make sense to me with the understanding that commodities are based on supply and demand. The article you posted was not specific to the food industry, so I'm still looking for evidence that profit margins have risen dramatically in the food industry. I purposefully use the word dramatic because margins for the food industry are relatively low, so even if they rose a little, I wouldn't think that was a bad thing.

No problem! my tone is almost always condescending too.

My initial response to your post was more of a piggyback to say some things that I wanted to say and not a direct antagonistic response to you in particular. I could've done without quoting your post.

I have beef with the whole market, so I added a link showing that profit has outpaced costs in an unusual manner in the last 3 years. I'd have to dig in and find evidence for the food industry and I might not have time for that. Its not like I make the decision on who to go after for price gouging anyways. I'm open to the possiblity of that happening to say the least. I'm also open to there being no evidence for it. Feel free to do the research on your own time if you're curious.
 
Thanks for posting the link. I'll check it out later when I have time, although from just what you've posted I have some BS alarms going on in my head. First of all as Al already pointed out these aren't monopolies.

A lot of the food industry, including some of the examples from your post are commodities, which almost by definition means they are priced based on supply and demand. Some of the other things, like corn and feed, are already managed by the government through subsidies and other programs. Most of the commodities, like meat, are tied in to a global market where it gets more complex. The US is one of the main exporters of meat for example, so as global economies add more meat to their diets and demand increases, our prices will go up. With commodities it's actually probably more beneficial to consumers to have major market share companies so that they can provide economies of scale.

The premise that large food Companies equal price gouging is a huge leap. It would be more convincing if they showed how these large food companies have unreasonable margins. Most of these companies have publicly available financial information, so why didn't they go there? Because they can't. Margins on food are way lower than other industries.

Here's an example of why I don't equate large market share to price gouging. Dean foods is a dairy company that owns the majority of fluid dairy sold in the US. They own something like 70% of the fluid dairy industry. A couple of years ago they declared bankruptcy because the demand for dairy went way down which no longer justified all of their assets. Dean foods should have increased prices with such a large market share to offset losses from asset underutilization, but they couldn't because the milk prices were set based on the market. Then on top of that Walmart builds their own milk processing plants and all of a sudden they go bankrupt.
It is funny how people who do not get into the meat of the issue fall back on 2nd year college econ classes to make judgements. Don't get stuck on "a monopoly is a single company controlling everything". If you get into the economics of a few large companies controlling an industry, you would see the greatly reduced competition affects prices, and the ease at which price fixing can occur. Take pepsi and coke, both of whom raised their prices, literally within months of each other, in the past few years, way beyond any cost of materials for their product, and both of whom then saw windfall profits in the following couple of years. Profits on the back of price fixing across an industry dominated by 2 behemoths. Monopolistic practices begin to occur when an industry becomes dominated by a few very large companies. Technically this is an oligopoly, and it tends to follow the same economic forces that a monopoly does. It doesn't take it falling to a single company true "monopoly" to see the same market forces come to bear.



Damn it, Dan beat me to it again, and this time with more snark! Sonofabitch! +110 internets.

 
I think something to watch for is to see if Harris gets any post-DNC bump. It's pretty common for most candidates to see a bump in their polling post-convention and Harris is going to have an "introduction" of sorts at this thing. A good convention for Harris, Walz, and Dems might further unhinge the Mango Manchild.

Grab your popcorn folks.
 
Regarding price gouging and some misconceptions, I saw this online and copied it to post here.





$47.61 for paper towels and TP at Target today.

Absolutely insane example of corporate greed and price gouging.

In fact, it made me so angry, I decided to do some analysis.

Many prices have increased by 50% or more since COVID, so I decided to put on my investment banking hat and spread some financials back to 2018 / 2019.

And man, was I ever surprised...

I started by looking at Target's annual revenue:

2018: $75.4 billion
2019: $78.1 billion
2020: $93.6 billion
2021: $106.0 billion
2022: $109.1 billion
2023: $107.4 billion
Last Twelve Months (LTM): $106.6 billion

Couple things I noticed. First, revenue has slipped a bit since 2022 and is continuing to do so in 2024 - not a great sign for the broader economy. Second, there's been big growth since 2018. They must be price gouging!

Well, I looked a bit deeper. Let's look at their cost of goods sold over the same period (the price they paid to buy the products they sold you).

2018: $53.3 billion (70.7% of sales)
2019: $54.9 billion (70.2%)
2020: $66.2 billion (70.7%)
2021: $75.0 billion (70.7%)
2022: $82.2 billion (75.4%)
2023: $77.7 billion (72.4%)
Last Twelve Months (LTM): $76.8 billion (72%)

Wow, so let me get this straight...

Target is making less money (28 cents) on every dollar of sales today than they were in 2018 (29.3 cents). Hmmmm. That's weird. Maybe they're not so good at this price gouging thing.

So, I decided to dig even deeper. They were prolly being evil and firing all of their employees so they could make up for the money they weren't gouging, right?

So, I looked at their operating expenses (the amount they pay to run the stores and the overall business):

2018: $15.7 billion (20.9% of sales)
2019: $16.2 billion (20.8%)
2020: $18.6 billion (19.9%)
2021: $19.8 billion (18.6%)
2022: $20.7 billion (18.9%)
2023: $21.6 billion (20.1%)
Last Twelve Months (LTM): $21.7 billion (20.3%)

Hmmmm. Very unusual behavior for someone price gouging me. Let's sum this all up by looking at their operating cash flow:

2018: $6.3 billion (8.4% of sales)
2019: $7.0 billion (9.0%)
2020: $8.8 billion (9.4%)
2021: $11.3 billion (10.7%)
2022: $6.2 billion (5.7%)
2023: $8.1 billion (7.6%)
Last Twelve Months (LTM): $8.1 billion (7.6%)

So, what this all means is that Target's making less overall profit on every dollar of revenue today (7.6 cents) than they were in 2018 (8.4 cents). And revenue has grown at an average (CAGR) of 7.3% per year since 2018 and operating cash flow has grown at 5.1% per year - both of which are pretty much in line w/ the overall rate of inflation during that period.

I guess I expected price gouging to be more profitable.

❌ NO PRICE GOUGING AT TARGET ❌

"Well Steve," you may say, "that's all fine and good, but even if Target isn't price gouging, Kimberly Clark and International Paper (both of whom are involved in the manufacture / marketing of paper towels and TP) sure as H3ll must be!"

Well Yes! Surely they are! I'll spare you all the numbers, but here's the summary:

Kimberly Clark:
5-year avg revenue growth: 2.0%
2018 Gross Margin: 69.7%
LTM Gross Margin: 64.0%
2018 EBITDA Margin: 12.1%
LTM EBITDA Margin: 15.6%

"A-HA! Look at that EBITDA margin!" you say, "They must be gouging!"

Well, the gross margin clearly says otherwise, and the five-year EBITDA CAGR is 6.6% - pretty much in line with inflation. Again, management is clearly bad at gouging.

❌ NO PRICE GOUGING AT KIMBERLY-CLARK ❌

"Well ok," you say, "I'm sure International Paper must be capturing all of that extra profit because they're the ones gouging then."

Let's take a look:

International Paper:
5-year avg revenue growth: 0.8%
2019 Gross Margin: 30.8%
LTM Gross Margin: 27.8%
2018 EBITDA Margin: 16.1%
LTM EBITDA Margin: 11.6%

Wowza, I guess IP is the worst price gouger of all since, well, they've basically been destroying value since before COVID began. You would think price gougers would be gouging to, I don't know, make more money and all. Well, IP made almost $3 billion of EBITDA in 2019, and a little over $2 billion over the last twelve months. Sigh.

❌ NO PRICE GOUGING AT INT'L PAPER ❌

So, maybe this means the inflation we've been dealing with hasn't been about corporate greed and price gouging after all. Maybe it has had something to do with, oh, I don't know, government spending and stimulus run amok or something.

So, rather than going on populist rants about implementing price controls for the greedy corporations (which, you know, have never worked out so well in the past), maybe we should consider some price controls for government spending.

That's a novel idea.



p.s. And for those of you who say "Hey, wait a minute, your receipt says "Bounty" - that's not Kimberly Clark, that's P&G! They must be price gouging!"

Procter & Gamble:
5-year avg revenue growth: 4.4%
2019 Gross Margin: 48.6%
LTM Gross Margin: 51.4%
2019 EBITDA Margin: 20.4%
LTM EBITDA Margin: 23.7%

Gross margin up? Yep. EBITDA margin up? Yep. Good management? Yep. Price gouging? Nope.
 
It is funny how people who do not get into the meat of the issue fall back on 2nd year college econ classes to make judgements. Don't get stuck on "a monopoly is a single company controlling everything". If you get into the economics of a few large companies controlling an industry, you would see the greatly reduced competition affects prices, and the ease at which price fixing can occur. Take pepsi and coke, both of whom raised their prices, literally within months of each other, in the past few years, way beyond any cost of materials for their product, and both of whom then saw windfall profits in the following couple of years. Profits on the back of price fixing across an industry dominated by 2 behemoths. Monopolistic practices begin to occur when an industry becomes dominated by a few very large companies. Technically this is an oligopoly, and it tends to follow the same economic forces that a monopoly does. It doesn't take it falling to a single company true "monopoly" to see the same market forces come to bear.



Damn it, Dan beat me to it again, and this time with more snark! Sonofabitch! +110 internets.


It's funny how people who aren't in an industry talk to someone with first hand knowledge like he doesn't know what he's talking about. FWIW, I do have first hand knowledge of P&L statements for many food companies I've worked with.

Could you please send a link on the Pepsi and Coke example you shared? Specifically I'm looking at understanding significant increases in profit margins and not just revenue.

There are already laws against collusion and price fixing. If what you are all alluding to is true, that big companies work together to increase costs for consumers, then all Kamala Harris needs to do is to enforce the laws that have already been put in to place.
 
Regarding price gouging and some misconceptions, I saw this online and copied it to post here.





$47.61 for paper towels and TP at Target today.

Absolutely insane example of corporate greed and price gouging.

In fact, it made me so angry, I decided to do some analysis.

Many prices have increased by 50% or more since COVID, so I decided to put on my investment banking hat and spread some financials back to 2018 / 2019.

And man, was I ever surprised...

I started by looking at Target's annual revenue:

2018: $75.4 billion
2019: $78.1 billion
2020: $93.6 billion
2021: $106.0 billion
2022: $109.1 billion
2023: $107.4 billion
Last Twelve Months (LTM): $106.6 billion

Couple things I noticed. First, revenue has slipped a bit since 2022 and is continuing to do so in 2024 - not a great sign for the broader economy. Second, there's been big growth since 2018. They must be price gouging!

Well, I looked a bit deeper. Let's look at their cost of goods sold over the same period (the price they paid to buy the products they sold you).

2018: $53.3 billion (70.7% of sales)
2019: $54.9 billion (70.2%)
2020: $66.2 billion (70.7%)
2021: $75.0 billion (70.7%)
2022: $82.2 billion (75.4%)
2023: $77.7 billion (72.4%)
Last Twelve Months (LTM): $76.8 billion (72%)

Wow, so let me get this straight...

Target is making less money (28 cents) on every dollar of sales today than they were in 2018 (29.3 cents). Hmmmm. That's weird. Maybe they're not so good at this price gouging thing.

So, I decided to dig even deeper. They were prolly being evil and firing all of their employees so they could make up for the money they weren't gouging, right?

So, I looked at their operating expenses (the amount they pay to run the stores and the overall business):

2018: $15.7 billion (20.9% of sales)
2019: $16.2 billion (20.8%)
2020: $18.6 billion (19.9%)
2021: $19.8 billion (18.6%)
2022: $20.7 billion (18.9%)
2023: $21.6 billion (20.1%)
Last Twelve Months (LTM): $21.7 billion (20.3%)

Hmmmm. Very unusual behavior for someone price gouging me. Let's sum this all up by looking at their operating cash flow:

2018: $6.3 billion (8.4% of sales)
2019: $7.0 billion (9.0%)
2020: $8.8 billion (9.4%)
2021: $11.3 billion (10.7%)
2022: $6.2 billion (5.7%)
2023: $8.1 billion (7.6%)
Last Twelve Months (LTM): $8.1 billion (7.6%)

So, what this all means is that Target's making less overall profit on every dollar of revenue today (7.6 cents) than they were in 2018 (8.4 cents). And revenue has grown at an average (CAGR) of 7.3% per year since 2018 and operating cash flow has grown at 5.1% per year - both of which are pretty much in line w/ the overall rate of inflation during that period.

I guess I expected price gouging to be more profitable.

❌ NO PRICE GOUGING AT TARGET ❌

"Well Steve," you may say, "that's all fine and good, but even if Target isn't price gouging, Kimberly Clark and International Paper (both of whom are involved in the manufacture / marketing of paper towels and TP) sure as H3ll must be!"

Well Yes! Surely they are! I'll spare you all the numbers, but here's the summary:

Kimberly Clark:
5-year avg revenue growth: 2.0%
2018 Gross Margin: 69.7%
LTM Gross Margin: 64.0%
2018 EBITDA Margin: 12.1%
LTM EBITDA Margin: 15.6%

"A-HA! Look at that EBITDA margin!" you say, "They must be gouging!"

Well, the gross margin clearly says otherwise, and the five-year EBITDA CAGR is 6.6% - pretty much in line with inflation. Again, management is clearly bad at gouging.

❌ NO PRICE GOUGING AT KIMBERLY-CLARK ❌

"Well ok," you say, "I'm sure International Paper must be capturing all of that extra profit because they're the ones gouging then."

Let's take a look:

International Paper:
5-year avg revenue growth: 0.8%
2019 Gross Margin: 30.8%
LTM Gross Margin: 27.8%
2018 EBITDA Margin: 16.1%
LTM EBITDA Margin: 11.6%

Wowza, I guess IP is the worst price gouger of all since, well, they've basically been destroying value since before COVID began. You would think price gougers would be gouging to, I don't know, make more money and all. Well, IP made almost $3 billion of EBITDA in 2019, and a little over $2 billion over the last twelve months. Sigh.

❌ NO PRICE GOUGING AT INT'L PAPER ❌

So, maybe this means the inflation we've been dealing with hasn't been about corporate greed and price gouging after all. Maybe it has had something to do with, oh, I don't know, government spending and stimulus run amok or something.

So, rather than going on populist rants about implementing price controls for the greedy corporations (which, you know, have never worked out so well in the past), maybe we should consider some price controls for government spending.

That's a novel idea.



p.s. And for those of you who say "Hey, wait a minute, your receipt says "Bounty" - that's not Kimberly Clark, that's P&G! They must be price gouging!"

Procter & Gamble:
5-year avg revenue growth: 4.4%
2019 Gross Margin: 48.6%
LTM Gross Margin: 51.4%
2019 EBITDA Margin: 20.4%
LTM EBITDA Margin: 23.7%

Gross margin up? Yep. EBITDA margin up? Yep. Good management? Yep. Price gouging? Nope.
Doing this amount of work to bring actual data to the discussion is appreciated. Thank you.
 
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