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Following Potential 2025 Draftees

jazznik said:
Keyonte is the only (semi) real thing that the Jazz got out of 2 years of tanking. If he is already being penciled as a temporary placeholder to be soon upgraded/traded... then it's just sad.
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Keyonte could be the 3rd or 4th starter on a solid playoff team, or he could be a 6th man. He can come in, make some shots and work as a secondary creator, but he's not a guy the Jazz need to plan around when they're drafting at the top of the lottery. Harper, Jakucionis and Fears are all more natural options at the 1. Tre Johnson and Ace Bailey should both be better options at the 2.
 
seattlejazzfan said:
it seems every year there is a prospect or three people simply overthink. maybe their warts are more visible or whatever - I have no idea.

At the end of the story, Bailey is one of the youngest dudes in the draft and he’s averaging 20 and 8.

side note: who had on their bingo card Bailey averaging more blocks per game than Cooper Flagg?
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putting him at ~7 in a deep draft isn't much of a knock on his skills. I'd be waaay more down with him if I could evaluate his playmaking skills. The big problem is that there isn't much data to evaluate. Dude can definitely make shots, though.
 
Look I don’t watch college ball much. I just looked at Flagg’s stats. They don’t jump out to me as some can’t miss stud. Dude can’t shoot.

Do most here still consider him as the sure thing #1 pick?

As of now if I have the #1 pick I’m take Harper.
 
seattlejazzfan said:
it seems every year there is a prospect or three people simply overthink. maybe their warts are more visible or whatever - I have no idea.

At the end of the story, Bailey is one of the youngest dudes in the draft and he’s averaging 20 and 8.

side note: who had on their bingo card Bailey averaging more blocks per game than Cooper Flagg?
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He's talented, no doubt. Would be nice if he'd pass a bit more and take some easier shots. People are just trying to envision the role he'll play. Looks like he'll play off the ball, space the floor, and attack some closeouts. His lack of handle and self-creation is holding him back. Then there's the question of whether coaches will want him to shoot these turnaround, fade-aways. His numbers are affected by the difficult shot diet that he tends to settle for. Also, what's with his FTs?
 
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Ferguson_Mellochill said:
Keyonte could be the 3rd or 4th starter on a solid playoff team, or he could be a 6th man. He can come in, make some shots and work as a secondary creator, but he's not a guy the Jazz need to plan around when they're drafting at the top of the lottery. Harper, Jakucionis and Fears are all more natural options at the 1. Tre Johnson and Ace Bailey should both be better options at the 2.
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When we drafted Keyonte, I never thought he'd end up the lead guard/playmaker. I think he'd thrive in a system where he's a secondary playmaker/scorer. Basically, he'd be better off if someone else created an initial advantage that he could exploit with a drive, pass, or shot.
 
NAOS_pt2 said:
When we drafted Keyonte, I never thought he'd end up the lead guard/playmaker. I think he'd thrive in a system where he's a secondary playmaker/scorer. Basically, he'd be better off if someone else created an initial advantage that he could exploit with a drive, pass, or shot.
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Right, he's more comfortable and efficient when he isn't trying to run an offense and he can just focus on scoring the ball.
 
Ferguson_Mellochill said:
He's talented, no doubt. Would be nice if he'd pass a bit more and take some easier shots. People are just trying to envision the role he'll play. Looks like he'll play off the ball, space the floor, and attack some closeouts. His lack of handle and self-creation is holding him back. Then there's the question of whether coaches will want him to shoot these turnaround, fade-aways.
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i think this is sorta what i'm getting at. people point to things like handle, self creation, lack of assists - the dude is putting up 20 ppg as one of the youngest freshmen in the country. at a certain point, maybe the dude just gets it done. and if you don't think handle is something an extremely young player can improve greatly on, i don't know what to tell you. why do we pretend these OADs are finished products? it's as if we form opinions, our minds can't be changed, so we subconsciously pretend that's just who they are.

also, let's be clear - he shoots those turnaround fadeaways because his teammates aren't getting him open looks. i'm sure he'd love to shoot wide open catch and shoot threes all day.
 
NAOS_pt2 said:
When we drafted Keyonte, I never thought he'd end up the lead guard/playmaker. I think he'd thrive in a system where he's a secondary playmaker/scorer. Basically, he'd be better off if someone else created an initial advantage that he could exploit with a drive, pass, or shot.
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Yup... fine with the pg experiment as it gives him reps and ya never know but he's likely an undersized 2 that is an above average passer for that position.
 
seattlejazzfan said:
lol @ the idea that dbpm tells a story about individual defense. Adorable.

Watch the games.
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Watched the game(s). I’d say if you think he’s been a really good defender, watch the games. See how useless that comment is?

I think Ace can be just fine as a defender in the NBA, but he’s not playing a ton of great defense in college. Moments? Yes, but not consistently. He’s part of the reason they aren’t good on defense. They sit in a zone and he’s…sometimes interested. Overall he’s not been a great defender at the college level.

Now of course, he’s not being asked to play defense. But that still does not equate to playing really good defense.
 
Ferguson_Mellochill said:
He's talented, no doubt. Would be nice if he'd pass a bit more and take some easier shots. People are just trying to envision the role he'll play. Looks like he'll play off the ball, space the floor, and attack some closeouts. His lack of handle and self-creation is holding him back. Then there's the question of whether coaches will want him to shoot these turnaround, fade-aways. His numbers are affected by the difficult shot diet that he tends to settle for. Also, what's with his FTs?
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He will certainly play a different role in the NBA, but the thing about envisioning him in an off ball role is that he hasn’t actually demonstrated those skills. The main one is obviously shooting where his FT% is awful, his volume is mediocre/poor, and his actual percentage isn’t great either. Many people compare him to the elite of the elite tall shooters, but I don’t find it to be a convincing argument because you would never compare someone else who has been this bad to elite shooters.

IMO, if you’re drafting him it’s because that shot making is so elite…which it actually is. He doesn’t come with much else, some raw potential in other areas, but it’s really the only area where he’s demonstrated a ton of ability.

I greatly worry about his overall basketball IQ and just generally question the effectiveness/value of being an incredible shot maker who does not get efficient shots for himself or others. There are some examples, Melo/LMA etc. But those are the elite of the elite, tough way to make a living.
 
KqWIN said:
Positions don’t really matter. Key needs to improve his on ball ability badly. Don’t care if that counts as him being a PG or not.
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Yes and no. We need someone to be a setup guy/playmaker and a lot of guys you'd want to put on the court with Key that can do that are smaller than him... so it creates some challenges. If we had Jokic... no issue... if we get another tall playmaker then all good.

These are issues we deal with in step 15 of Key's and the team's development and we are at step 2 or some ****. I do think he benefits and can see more success running an offball action where he catches with an advantage instead of walking the ball up the court and trying to get us into an action (he has gotten a little better at getting us into stuff... at least to my eye test).
 
Scoring 39 in a college game is not easy, Ace is crazy talented. The play at 0:56 is one of the worst/best plays you'll see and encapsulates the Ace experience. He grabs the defensive rebound, brings the ball up the court, and without looking at a single teammate immediately goes in to a step back fadeaway midrange shot, and to his credit, drills it. Wow on multiple different levels.


View: https://youtu.be/_JGMAArUrKc?si=dyZiVtA5h932tlAu
 
seattlejazzfan said:
i think this is sorta what i'm getting at. people point to things like handle, self creation, lack of assists - the dude is putting up 20 ppg as one of the youngest freshmen in the country. at a certain point, maybe the dude just gets it done. and if you don't think handle is something an extremely young player can improve greatly on, i don't know what to tell you. why do we pretend these OADs are finished products? it's as if we form opinions, our minds can't be changed, so we subconsciously pretend that's just who they are.

also, let's be clear - he shoots those turnaround fadeaways because his teammates aren't getting him open looks. i'm sure he'd love to shoot wide open catch and shoot threes all day.
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LMAO, that's a lot of cope. He has a long history of tough shot enjoyment and seeking.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Yes and no. We need someone to be a setup guy/playmaker and a lot of guys you'd want to put on the court with Key that can do that are smaller than him... so it creates some challenges. If we had Jokic... no issue... if we get another tall playmaker then all good.

These are issues we deal with in step 15 of Key's and the team's development and we are at step 2 or some ****. I do think he benefits and can see more success running an offball action where he catches with an advantage instead of walking the ball up the court and trying to get us into an action (he has gotten a little better at getting us into stuff... at least to my eye test).
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For the most part, I think this strict position talk belongs in 2015. It’s good for easy discussion but not much beyond that.

But what you’re saying is mostly what I believe. It’s not a black and white thing and more about the extent to which a player has skills and can execute a role. Telling me a guy plays PG or any other position doesn’t tell me anything about his skills or role, but telling me who he can play with will. I think it’s fair to say that Keyonte cannot be a heavy ball dominant guy and does some have off ball talent that could be utilized more often.

I actually think Key is just fine on offense. I think he’s on track to be a + 1-2 offensive player which is pretty good. He has the potential to be even more although I think that’s unlikely. What can’t happen is him continuing to be the worst defender in the league. IMO, the worst part of his development is the absolute privilege he’s been given and the bad habits that have come from it. I don’t have too big of an issue with his offensive role, though I’d agree we should use him off the ball more. I think it’s foolish to think we can snap our fingers and erase him from all the poor habits that he’s picking up during these crucial years. Some of those habits are on offense, but I think he’ll be fine. Defensively he might just be a disaster forever.
 
In a world where everyone is kinda collectively shrugging at the availability of Brandon Ingram (not to mention Zach Lavine and so many being unimpressed with Cam Whitmore), it’s kinda weird that people would be hyped about Ace Bailey who would be lucky to be as good as Ingram has been. His penchant for ball-stopping and going 1 on 1 is catastrophic for his prospects until he learns to play in flow.

I’d of course homer him if we drafted him but I would rather roll those dice on Cam Whitmore than use the pick on Ace Bailey that we tanked our asses off for (but getting him with another pick would be A+).
 
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NUMBERICA said:
In a world where everyone is kinda collectively shrugging at the availability of Brandon Ingram (not to mention Zach Lavine and so many being unimpressed with Cam Whitmore), it’s kinda weird that people would be hyped about Ace Bailey who would be lucky to be as good as Ingram has been. His penchant for ball-stopping and going 1 on 1 is catastrophic for his prospects until he learns to play in flow.

I’d of course homer him if we drafted him but I would rather roll those dice on Cam Whitmore than use the pick on Ace Bailey that we tanked our asses off for (but getting him with another pick would be A+).
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If those guys didn't have injury/contract status issues (and those are kind of related), then I think they would have suitors. Maybe not a bidding war tho lol. I have my concerns with Ace but I think anywhere between 3-6 he can make sense and 18 YOs can change and improve.
 
BTW we are going to get the #3 pick and there will be a death match between the Ace and Kas
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
BTW we are going to get the #3 pick and there will be a death match between the Ace and Kas
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9/10 outcomes I think Kas ends up the better player, but still I would understand drafting Ace. I think Ace is exactly the type of player DA would draft, but something about Kas's sneaky athleticism makes me think he might fit the bill as well.
 
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