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Game Thread Feb 07, 2025 08:00PM MT: Utah Jazz @ Phoenix Suns

Added to Calendar: 02-07-25

Just watched the second half:

- Hopefully this win helps with the vibes in Phoenix and they can pass MIN in the standings.
- Royce is an elite ball slapper and I miss him.
- Collier shoots with such confidence, it makes me feel like he's going to figure out his shot one day.
- Booker is very good. Having Svi guard him was an elite tanking move.
 
idiot said:
Yeah, though we didn't have too many other great options (Keyonte, Brice, Juzang). It will be interesting when/if KJ Martin is available. Is he an actual, or just more of a theoretical good defender?
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Harkless is a real defender, not just theoretical. Probably the worst part of not trading Sexton or Clarkson and picking up Martin is less time for Harkless.
 
TheGoldStandard said:
I am not as high on Hardy as many, but it is clear there is a directive this year, and as of late I am happy with the results. Earlier in the year I was more annoyed with the lack of minutes for the young guys, but I can see logic in bringing them along slowly. If the Jazz lose this game this way in a win mode season, you start questioning.
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I can't see how any of that has anything to do with Hardy's brainfart.

It wasn't some galaxy brain decision to improve the Suns' chances from 1 % to 3 % for tanking purposes. And it wasn't heat of the moment stuff either, but a decision he knew was coming with a full Jazz timeout after the Grayson Allen three.

He lost the game for the Jazz and didn't take any responsibility for it. Just makes me think he'll make the same mistake again, given a similar situation.
 
Tanktastic said:
I can't see how any of that has anything to do with Hardy's brainfart.

It wasn't some galaxy brain decision to improve the Suns' chances from 1 % to 3 % for tanking purposes. And it wasn't heat of the moment stuff either, but a decision he knew was coming with a full Jazz timeout after the Grayson Allen three.

He lost the game for the Jazz and didn't take any responsibility for it. Just makes me think he'll make the same mistake again, given a similar situation.
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You are overthinking and over worrying about it
 
Tanktastic said:
At some point Jazz will want to win games, close games, even crucial games. And if Hardy is still there at that point, he'll lose them those games. Unless he takes responsibility and sees he messed up.
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What a weird couple of comments by you.
 
Tanktastic said:
I can't see how any of that has anything to do with Hardy's brainfart.
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Is it that obvious, though? They don't take much time off the clock from the rebound to the TO, so they would definitely have time on the clock if he missed, given they got the rebound. And then you open up a 2 for OT or you could even lose. The clock doesn't start when the ball hits the rim, after all.
 
jazznik said:
When the Jazz desperately needed points they went to their star, Markkanen, and time after time he was unable to create good shots or make a good pass time. Just wasted possessions. This is the preview of future playoffs. When you are a star you are supposed to power your team in those moments. I really don't think that Lauri can be even a second option on a playoff team.
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Lauri is objectively playing worse. However, you’re not taking into account a few important things and I think it makes your post come off as very ignorant.

1. Other teams have a more established game plan against him this year. They are focusing on him much more and he is playing worse due to this and when combined with my below points

2. He is playing sporadically, both for actual injury and for purposeful tanking, and that has lead to a decline in his stats/game. He cannot get a rhythm and it is obvious.

3. His surrounding/supporting cast is much worse this year. Almost nobody helps him be better and in fact, are bringing down. They are terrible at getting him the ball and it seems to happen right at the end of the play clock so he is forced to put up bad shots. Keyonte, and to a lesser degree Sexton, have been horrible for him this year. I think you are going to see much better Lauri play, at the detriment of the tank, occur due to Collier’s great play which directly helps Lauri.

Finally, it is hard to tank for an NBA player, especially one like Lauri. It is obvious that the tanking is affecting his game, even though he was fully aware of what he was getting into when signing the extension. Just hard on his psyche which obviously translates to his game.
 
kcgar said:
What a weird couple of comments by you.
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There's like 12 different threads on the intricacies of tanking, but some criticism of Hardy losing the game with his decision is too much for you?

hgb said:
Is it that obvious, though? They don't take much time off the clock from the rebound to the TO, so they would definitely have time on the clock if he missed, given they got the rebound. And then you open up a 2 for OT or you could even lose. The clock doesn't start when the ball hits the rim, after all.
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It is. If Lauri is missing it on purpose and Kessler and Collins are going hard (especially how Kessler dominated the game again) for a high rebound, the chances of a clean-cut easy rebound and instant TO aren't that high.

But of course Hardy also took out Kessler for Svi for the FTs only, and brought him back for the final play. What?? Why? If you're going to keep Kessler in for the final play after two makes, why would you take him out for the FTs? Not just for a miss on purpose, but any miss.
 
Tanktastic said:
At some point Jazz will want to win games, close games, even crucial games. And if Hardy is still there at that point, he'll lose them those games. Unless he takes responsibility and sees he messed up.
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I disagree.
 
Tanktastic said:
Hardy's in-game management has always been pretty suspect. Not missing the second free throw with 0,9 left, up by 2 is a fireable offense. Just idiotic, incredibly stupid. And that's 0 % on Lauri with Hardy shouting to him "MAKE IT!" just before the free throw. And no, that wasn't some 4D chess tanking move, just extremely bad coaching.

And then he tells the press multiple times "the end didn't matter, it was all about our D on Booker". Yeah, sure, that was the biggest thing, but you just lost the game for your players.
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The Suns did have a timeout left and Grayson got his shot off in 0.2 seconds. If Lauri had missed it and things unfolded the same we would have lost in regulation.

I agree that missing was likely the better option, but a fast timeout on the rebound changes the calculus a bit.
 
Tanktastic said:
I know. The Jazz winning games sure sounds boring when compared with those sexy, sexy lotto balls.
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The jazz winning games this season still ends in sexy sexy lotto balls. Just less of them. Why would anyone want less lotto balls?
 
Tanktastic said:
It is. If Lauri is missing it on purpose and Kessler and Collins are going hard (especially how Kessler dominated the game again) for a high rebound, the chances of a clean-cut easy rebound and instant TO aren't that high.
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But they are very much non-zero, and you just increased your chances of losing the game in regulation from 0% to a non-insignificant %. I don't think this is an easy decision.
 
kcgar said:
Lauri is objectively playing worse. However, you’re not taking into account a few important things and I think it makes your post come off as very ignorant.

1. Other teams have a more established game plan against him this year. They are focusing on him much more and he is playing worse due to this and when combined with my below points

2. He is playing sporadically, both for actual injury and for purposeful tanking, and that has lead to a decline in his stats/game. He cannot get a rhythm and it is obvious.

3. His surrounding/supporting cast is much worse this year. Almost nobody helps him be better and in fact, are bringing down. They are terrible at getting him the ball and it seems to happen right at the end of the play clock so he is forced to put up bad shots. Keyonte, and to a lesser degree Sexton, have been horrible for him this year. I think you are going to see much better Lauri play, at the detriment of the tank, occur due to Collier’s great play which directly helps Lauri.

Finally, it is hard to tank for an NBA player, especially one like Lauri. It is obvious that the tanking is affecting his game, even though he was fully aware of what he was getting into when signing the extension. Just hard on his psyche which obviously translates to his game.
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Everything that you said could be said about almost every other star players. All of them get planned against and focused on, many of them are on bad teams and/or playing sporadically. But you know what? They deliver in the clutch: that comes along with being a star and the leader of your team.

And, btw, Lauri did get the ball often in the last minutes of the 4th/OT last night: he was simply unable to capitalize on it and the team ended up being carried in the clutch by the young players, Collier and Keyonte. At the same time, the leading players on Suns, Booker and Allen, came through big in the clutch and the team won because of that.

Here are the clutch stats of Lauri this year:

Points - 2.1 (4th on the team)
Rebounds - 0.5 (8th)
Assists - 0.1 (11th)
FG% - 30% (7th)
3P% - 27% (5th)

Are these the stats of the team leader on the max salary?! Game after game Lauri underdelivers and disappears at the end when it matters. And it is not even a recent thing: he was far from being dominant at the end of close games last year as well.
 
jazznik said:
Everything that you said could be said about almost every other star players. All of them get planned against and focused on, many of them are on bad teams and/or playing sporadically. But you know what? They deliver in the clutch: that comes along with being a star and the leader of your team.

And, btw, Lauri did get the ball often in the last minutes of the 4th/OT last night: he was simply unable to capitalize on it and the team ended up being carried in the clutch by the young players, Collier and Keyonte. At the same time, the leading players on Suns, Booker and Allen, came through big in the clutch and the team won because of that.

Here are the clutch stats of Lauri this year:

Points - 2.1 (4th on the team)
Rebounds - 0.5 (8th)
Assists - 0.1 (11th)
FG% - 30% (7th)
3P% - 27% (5th)

Are these the stats of the team leader on the max salary?! Game after game Lauri underdelivers and disappears at the end when it matters. And it is not even a recent thing: he was far from being dominant at the end of close games last year as well.
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That didn’t really address much of my post. “Many of them are on bad teams and/or playing sporadically. But you know what? They deliver in the clutch: that comes along with being a star and the leader of your team.” Care to provide some players that even come close to backing that up. That are on similar bad teams, trying to actively tank, that are playing sporadically, have as young of team, and have no other “star” players? No one on Pelicans. Definitely no one on Washington. No one on Portland. No one on Charlotte? Scottie Barnes or RJ Barrett on Toronto? Nope. Definitely no one on Brooklyn. Definitely no one on Chicago. Not a single player like you strongly suggest and doing a couple minutes of research doesn’t even come close.

No where did I say he wasn’t getting the ball in the last parts of last night or any other games. I’m not sure where that came from. I was saying that he is not being put in a position to be successful at any point of the game.

The team got collectively worse last year as the season went on so it doesn’t surprise me why he also got worse. It’s funny how you list negative stats without considering why he may be trending down. It’s not black and white as you suggest.

What exactly is your overall point because I’m not sure what it is and I feel like you don’t either? Like, if you were the GM, what would you do with the Lauri situation, that would make the team better long term? Do you think the Jazz can upgrade the team in the foreseeable future without Lauri on the team? Can you give me a similar player that the Jazz could realistically get, that would be playing better than Lauri, given that Jazz are purposefully tanking, with a terrible young supporting cast with lots of chuckers. Too me, Lauri is the best possible option for the Jazz in the near future and it isn’t even close. He is youngish, wants to live in Utah, and is apparently ok with a tank or else he would have demanded a trade. Not to mention he is a very good dude.

Also, while Lauri probably is not actually worth the max, it is all relative. Jazz are not attracting players who are legitimate max players period, but if you do get one that is below max level you still have to pay them or else they leave for nothing and another team will pay them, or you trade them and you are perpetually starting over. It’s unfortunate but you have to overpay your best player especially in a small unattractive market.
 
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