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How long does a SUCCESSFUL tank need to be?

idiot

Well-Known Member
A couple days ago @midnight_hwy made the point that it's important to tank for multiple years. He's obviously right that the odds aren't on your side in any single-year tank to get what you need out of it. But I wondered how much tanking might be typically needed to accomplish a team's objectives (which, I take it, are to get the player(s) that can lead you to championship contention). So I've tried to devise a rough method to make a good estimate. The answer?: about 5 years on average (of course luck could make it longer or shorter).

Here's how I came to that conclusion:
  • I used a bottom-4 finish as the measure of true tanking. Given how the league works these days, it's an achievement to finish bottom-4 in any given year, so I consider a bottom-4 finish a tank done well. And even more, it's no simple feat to finish bottom-4 multiple years in a row.
  • I looked at the 7 top draft choices over the past 15 drafts. I used 7 because the bottom 4 records are almost guaranteed a top-7 pick. And given the lotto odds, you can't really expect more than a top-7 pick from a strong tank. We all want a top-5 pick when tanking, but that's not realistic in today's NBA.
  • I gave each of these picks a value from 0 to 100. 0 represents a role player or worse (since you don't need to tank to find a role player in today's NBA). 30 is a good, strong starter who can be a key player on a winning team, at least in theory (Markkanen, Aaron Gordon, Porzingis, for example). 50 is a player that if you had two of that quality you'd be on your way to contention (Chet Holmgren, Jaren Jackson Jr, Paulo Banchero). 100 means that this single player himself is virtually a path to contention (I only gave 100 to Wemby; though 95 to Doncic). A couple more examples to help give a feel for what I did: I gave Anthony Edwards a 65, Jaylen Brown a 40, and Brandon Ingram a 22.
  • Basically the idea is that you want to be able to get players that add up to 100 in any successful tank so that you're on a clear path to championship contention.
  • If you assume that after a year of solid-tanking you could get a draft choice anywhere from 1-7, then it follows that you can average the values of the players drafted 1-7 to see how many years of serious tanking (on average) it will take to equal 100.

It turns out the average player value of picks 1-7 is 21.1 (median 20). This means that on average (average lottery luck, average pick luck), it will take nearly 5 years of bottom-4 finishes to obtain players that equal 100 in tanking value.

(If anyone's curious what my valuations were for each player, let me know and I'll post them. I think I was more generous than stingy in my assessments, and so I may be a bit too optimistic for how short an average successful tank needs to be).

Any thoughts? Disagree with my assumptions/method? Let me know.
 
Interesting, and thanks for the effort. 5 years feels about right with the idea that you hope to get out sooner.

I might approach it a little differently, but might end up in the same place. I'll post both my ideas in different posts.
 
The answer depends only on luck and your drafting and can't be made into a formula.

If you get five Brandon Ingrams, you're not in championship contention.

If you're the team that picks the marvinbagleys and markellefulzes, you can have top3-picks for multiple seasons, and still miss out on the 95 players.

Or you can be tanking in seasons when there are no 95 players in the draft.
 
Interesting, and thanks for the effort. 5 years feels about right with the idea that you hope to get out sooner.

I might approach it a little differently, but might end up in the same place. I'll post both my ideas in different posts.
The first idea would be to calculate the probability of each of the top 4 draft positions at obtaining a number one offensive option. Assume you can get a bottom 3 record. Then calculate the probability of getting each draft pick and adding up the probabilities until you are at like 75%.

I think the main thing you are tanking for is to get a guy you can build around, which typically means a #1 offensive option. Once you get that guy you hope he turns in to a top 5 guy, but at least you can start surrounding him with complementary players. I think this is kind of your low bar for a tank, but probably more realistic.
 
Interesting, and thanks for the effort. 5 years feels about right with the idea that you hope to get out sooner.

I might approach it a little differently, but might end up in the same place. I'll post both my ideas in different posts.
The second idea would be to calculate the odds that a single draft has a top 10 player in it. Then assume that player would be taken by your team at number 1, and predict how likely it is that you get the number one pick in a draft that has a top 10 player.
 
Philadelphia 76'ers "Process" --
2013: Tank, draft Nerlens Noel with the 6th pick, who red-shirted with a torn ACL.
2014: Tank, draft Joel Embiid with the 3rd pick, who red-shirted with foot and back issues.
2015: Tank, draft Jahlil Okafor with the 3rd pick.
2016: Tank, draft Ben Simmons with the 1st pick, who red-shirted with some issue I don't remember.
2017: Tank, draft Markelle Fultz with the 1st pick after trading up with Boston.
2018: Win a few games, draft Mikal Bridges with the 10th pick, then trade him to Phoenix for Ziaire Smith.
2019: Win 51 games.
 
The Suns took Devin Booker in 2015. Great start.

They then had the #4, #4, #1 and #6 picks in the next four drafts. Wow.

Dragan Bender was out of the NBA pretty quickly, is now 27 and hasn't played for two years.
Josh Jackson has been out of the league for three seasons - and was sandwiched in the draft between Tatum and Fox.
Deandre Ayton was good for a while - but of course Luka was available at #1 (or even JJJ or Trae).
And the #6 they turned into Dario Saric and Cam Johnson.

Some teams are much, much better at drafting than others. Ainge has some decent history. But the last two drafts haven't given much hope. Although tough to see how it would've been much better looking at who was available.
 
The Jazz need to acquire 2 bonafide stars to add to the players they have currently. They'll also need to add some depth pieces and make changes around the fringes, but this should be feasible.

2025: Flagg and Harper look to be the main franchise-caliber players. Bailey, Johnson and maybe Edgecombe have some All Star potential as 2nd fiddle types, imo.
2026: Dyantsa and Peterson are franchise-level prospects, while Cam Boozer might be. Avent and Lopez have some star potential as 2nd fiddle types, imo. There's more really intriguing talent, like Quaintance, Arenas, etc., but the Jazz don't have a 2nd pick in 2026 to capitalize.

Over these next two drafts, the Jazz really need to draft one of: Flagg, Harper, Dybantsa, Peterson or maybe Boozer, while also grabbing one of Bailey, Johnson, Edgecombe, Avent, Lopez, etc.
 
The first idea would be to calculate the probability of each of the top 4 draft positions at obtaining a number one offensive option. Assume you can get a bottom 3 record. Then calculate the probability of getting each draft pick and adding up the probabilities until you are at like 75%.

I think the main thing you are tanking for is to get a guy you can build around, which typically means a #1 offensive option. Once you get that guy you hope he turns in to a top 5 guy, but at least you can start surrounding him with complementary players. I think this is kind of your low bar for a tank, but probably more realistic.
Interesting.

Why top 4 instead of top 5? How do you decide who is a number 1 option? For example, would you consider Kyrie or Lillard or Jaren Jackson Jr as #1, for example?
 
The answer depends only on luck and your drafting and can't be made into a formula.

If you get five Brandon Ingrams, you're not in championship contention.

If you're the team that picks the marvinbagleys and markellefulzes, you can have top3-picks for multiple seasons, and still miss out on the 95 players.

Or you can be tanking in seasons when there are no 95 players in the draft.
Yeah, this is why I computed averages. Results are going to vary according to luck/drafting skill (which is sometimes luck).
 
The first idea would be to calculate the probability of each of the top 4 draft positions at obtaining a number one offensive option. Assume you can get a bottom 3 record. Then calculate the probability of getting each draft pick and adding up the probabilities until you are at like 75%.

I think the main thing you are tanking for is to get a guy you can build around, which typically means a #1 offensive option. Once you get that guy you hope he turns in to a top 5 guy, but at least you can start surrounding him with complementary players. I think this is kind of your low bar for a tank, but probably more realistic.

You can do some macro analysis based on averages, but the reality is that there's significant variance in prospect quality and draft position in each draft when you look at the micro scenarios. There's too much that's outside your control to make definitive decisions in advance.

The other argument I've made in the past is that, a) the purpose of the draft is primarily to acquire star players under long-term team control, and b) you should always draft for high ceiling (upside). It's okay to miss on picks. It's not okay to draft players that don't have the upside of an impact player. FWIW, the Ainge/Zanick regime seem to be doing that.
 
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Interesting.

Why top 4 instead of top 5? How do you decide who is a number 1 option? For example, would you consider Kyrie or Lillard or Jaren Jackson Jr as #1, for example?
Top 4 is equal odds for the bottom 3, so just for ease of calculation. #1 option is obviously subjective, but the basic idea is a guy that you can start building around.
 
Top 4 is equal odds for the bottom 3, so just for ease of calculation. #1 option is obviously subjective, but the basic idea is a guy that you can start building around.
I'm just making these numbers up, but it seems like 2 out of every 3 years there are 2 guys that are worth building around. So if you are bottom 3, 3 years in a row you would have a 54% chance at drafting the guy. If you assume that other teams are bad at drafting or there are more than 3 guys some drafts and you can get the guy at 3, then you have an 80% chance.
 
When Stockton and Malone left it seemed like two seasons and in season 3 the Jazz were competitive again. Again that was with a different ownership and a different business plan and different cash flow needs.
 
When Stockton and Malone left it seemed like two seasons and in season 3 the Jazz were competitive again. Again that was with a different ownership and a different business plan and different cash flow needs.

Well, the plan was likely different to begin with back in 2003. The Jazz were supposed to be the worst team not just in the league but perhaps in NBA history. Of course, some goofy kid from Russia added like 30 wins to the win column almost singlehandedly.

The Jazz may well have ended up with Dwight Howard had that not happened.
 
The second idea would be to calculate the odds that a single draft has a top 10 player in it. Then assume that player would be taken by your team at number 1, and predict how likely it is that you get the number one pick in a draft that has a top 10 player.
Again, just making numbers up, but let's just say there is 1 top 10 player every other draft. You would have to be bottom 3 bad for 6 years in a row to have a 42% chance at getting a top 10 player. If it's more like 2 players in a draft, but only every 3 drafts, then the probability would be 55% after 6 years of bottom 3.
 
If you combine my last two posts, then if you have a bottom 3 records for 3 years in a row then you would have a 50 to 80% chance at drafting a guy that's worth building around with a 20 to 30% chance of drafting a top 10 guy.

All with the obviously incorrect assumption that you are best in class at drafting and if that guy is available you will find them and draft them.

Anyway I think the correct answer based on probabilities, draft class strength fluctuations, and fan base patience is 3 years.
 
I don’t think there’s a right answer other than be patient and don’t rush. An OKC tank where you’re lucky enough to trade for a prospect that’s going to turn into an mvp caliber player then yes, five years. Sadly in our case we need to either get lucky or building takes 8-10 years.
 
Love this thread. I would personally re-frame this question - "How long does it take to build a playoff or championship caliber nucleus?"

The answer boils down to 1) draft lottery luck and 2) ownership and front office personnel. How good are they at their jobs?

High-quality franchises (Thunder, Spurs - lucky bastards, Celtics) have historically rebuilt very quickly. Others (Kings, Wizards, Pelicans, the Knicks prior to recent history) have generally sucked forever. Market size and revenue considerations are a significant part of the equation, but still only part of the equation.

Honestly, this question makes me miss the previous ownership regime. We were playoff competitive (or better) for 30+ seasons and were only in the cellar once that I can remember (04-05).

We have the draft assets to get much better, and very quickly. DA clearly has the track record of rebuilding rosters but let's see what he can get done here.

IMO, if we really wanted to think big - go get Sam Presti and pay him whatever (and I mean - WHATEVER) it takes to get him to Salt Lake City.
 
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