The *OFFICIAL* Russia Is About To Invade Ukraine Thread
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Al-O-Meter
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My interests in this conflict are aligned, and always have aligned with the people of Ukraine. When they were invaded, I was 100% behind whatever we needed to do to help them. Now we are three years in, and I am still guided by what needs to be done to help the people of Ukraine. I simply disagree with the lot here in this forum who believe what the people of Ukraine needs now is more war. I think they've won. I think there is an offramp. I think the dictator of Ukraine, at least last week, didn't want the offramp and I have not been shy to say the dictator of Ukraine lost my support. I still support the Ukrainian people, but the pro-war lefties are twisting my lack of support for Ukraine's dictator into support for Russia's dictator.
I applaud Trump's unmistakable message to the dictator of Ukraine that it is over. It is ending. That end can either be winning its fight for survival, and we will lock that in right now, or it can be Russia pulling out a victory after they were beaten. It seems that message has been received, and the dictator of Ukraine is falling in line with his people to let the United States end the conflict so the proud people of Ukraine can put their efforts into building instead of war.
Al-O-Meter
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Treated his ideas respect and coming from someone unique who may have different views on some issues. Although he is aware he probably won't convince me to change how I see things, or be convinced to change his own views by what I say, there is still a recognition of value in trying to find understanding instead of simply blocking out everything that deviates from what a mirror tells you.
Al-O-Meter
Well-Known Member
He still operates like a human, most of the time. He’s tried to connect with me on personal level and I’ve seen in him what I see in others like him.
I work with a lot of conservatives and MAGA folk. We’ve been talking about what’s going on. They’re e giant assholes, but so am I so we can at least agree on that. Those in my sphere are all very similar. Isolationists, tough guys, who use sarcasm and coyness as aggression. They think it brings them to my level from an intimidation stand point. Once you face them down they cave, like instantly. They will Wally do dear liberals, it’s crazy.
These guys are also big cuddly dudes who just need real friends honestly. Politics aside, they’re very caring and serious about their inner circle and those they love. It’s endearing. I think it an Utah dude thing too. We all want to be friendly, for the most part, and love connecting.
I’m a huge dick on here. Like Al, sometimes I use this place to blow off steam and speak my heart in the moment.
I’m not giving up on real people ever. We are good, most of us. Just trying to live man. We obviously have some serious mental issues in America post COVID. We still haven’t processed it and everyone is lashing out with unresolved trauma.
I kinda think this is part of our healing process. It’s not gonna be pretty obviously, and we may not survive. I hope we do and genuinely think we will. But we gotta go through it, together. We have no choice now.
I’m not willing to completely write off half the country, no matter how misguided or destructive they are.
Not yet. Again benefit of the doubt. For now.
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The Thriller
Well-Known Member
The poster you’re engaging with isn’t interested in healing. He’s one of the biggest trolls on the board. He owns at least 3 other accounts and spends entire days spamming this board.
Al-O-Meter
Well-Known Member
I have no other accounts but this one, and the one time I was suspended for a week I honored the moderator's decision as I honor the rules against making duplicate accounts. As for spending entire days, while I appreciate your opinion of my industriousness, I can't say it is warranted.
Red
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https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2025/03/trump-and-vance-shattered-europes-illusions-about-america/681925/?gift=jya-z5lTntURuSFdyDPB2ciNakyf_MT9Y9OqjZfr8YA&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share
A book festival in Vilnius, meetings with friends in Warsaw, a dinner in Berlin: I happened to be at gatherings in three European cities over the past several days, and everywhere I went, everyone wanted to talk about the Oval Office performance last Friday. Europeans needed some time to process this event, not just because of what it told them about the war in Ukraine, but because of what it told them about America, a country they thought they knew well.
In just a few minutes, the behavior of Donald Trump and J. D. Vance created a brand new stereotype for America: not the quiet American, not the ugly American, but the brutal American. Whatever illusions Europeans ever had about Americans—whatever images lingered from old American movies, the ones where the good guys win, the bad guys lose, and honor defeats treachery—those are shattered. Whatever fond memories remain of the smiling GIs who marched into European cities in 1945, of the speeches that John F. Kennedy and Ronald Reagan made at the Berlin Wall, or of the crowds that once welcomed Barack Obama, those are also fading fast.
Quite apart from their politics, Trump and Vance are rude. They are cruel. They berated and mistreated a guest on camera, and then boasted about it afterward, as if their ugly behavior achieved some kind of macho “win.” They announced that they would halt transfers of military equipment to Ukraine, and hinted at ending sanctions on Russia, the aggressor state. In his speech to Congress last night, Trump once again declared that America would “get” Greenland, which is a part of Denmark—a sign that he intends to run roughshod over other allies too.
These are the actions not of the good guys in old Hollywood movies, but of the bad guys. If Reagan was a white-hatted cowboy, Trump and Vance are Mafia dons. The chorus of Republican political leaders defending them seems both sinister and surprising to Europeans too. “I never thought Americans would kowtow like that,” one friend told me, marveling.
Part of the Oval Office altercation was provoked by Zelensky’s insistence on telling the truth, as the full video clearly shows. His mistake was to point out that Russia and Ukraine have reached many cease-fires and made many agreements since 2014, and that Vladimir Putin has broken most of them, including during Trump’s first term.
A book festival in Vilnius, meetings with friends in Warsaw, a dinner in Berlin: I happened to be at gatherings in three European cities over the past several days, and everywhere I went, everyone wanted to talk about the Oval Office performance last Friday. Europeans needed some time to process this event, not just because of what it told them about the war in Ukraine, but because of what it told them about America, a country they thought they knew well.
In just a few minutes, the behavior of Donald Trump and J. D. Vance created a brand new stereotype for America: not the quiet American, not the ugly American, but the brutal American. Whatever illusions Europeans ever had about Americans—whatever images lingered from old American movies, the ones where the good guys win, the bad guys lose, and honor defeats treachery—those are shattered. Whatever fond memories remain of the smiling GIs who marched into European cities in 1945, of the speeches that John F. Kennedy and Ronald Reagan made at the Berlin Wall, or of the crowds that once welcomed Barack Obama, those are also fading fast.
Quite apart from their politics, Trump and Vance are rude. They are cruel. They berated and mistreated a guest on camera, and then boasted about it afterward, as if their ugly behavior achieved some kind of macho “win.” They announced that they would halt transfers of military equipment to Ukraine, and hinted at ending sanctions on Russia, the aggressor state. In his speech to Congress last night, Trump once again declared that America would “get” Greenland, which is a part of Denmark—a sign that he intends to run roughshod over other allies too.
These are the actions not of the good guys in old Hollywood movies, but of the bad guys. If Reagan was a white-hatted cowboy, Trump and Vance are Mafia dons. The chorus of Republican political leaders defending them seems both sinister and surprising to Europeans too. “I never thought Americans would kowtow like that,” one friend told me, marveling.
Part of the Oval Office altercation was provoked by Zelensky’s insistence on telling the truth, as the full video clearly shows. His mistake was to point out that Russia and Ukraine have reached many cease-fires and made many agreements since 2014, and that Vladimir Putin has broken most of them, including during Trump’s first term.
Al-O-Meter
Well-Known Member
Europeans are children. The events they say propped up their image of Americans not being brutal were when Americans came half way around the world to kill the Germany army, and to stomp the USSR into the dust of history. Pax Americana did not spring from unicorn farts. We built the most lethal military the world has ever seen to have the ability to slap to the dirt anyone wanting to make war. Paraphrased in the words of Bruce Banner as played by the late, great Bill Bixby "Don't make us angry. You wouldn't like us when we're angry." There is and always was the threat of very potent brutality hiding just under the surface of the USA.
idestroyedthetoilet
Well-Known Member
We each have our own situations to deal with. The shame is on the collective. So much lip service offered in support but we can’t be bothered to give a little help? It would hardly inconvenience the rich west to raise enough private funds to make an overwhelming difference. If we actually cared about freedom and fighting evil then we could have easily given Ukraine the support they need, and deserve for fighting back the enemy for us all, through both public channels and private donations.
To those who claim we can’t afford it, what nonsense. The USA has put up somewhere around 1/10th of 1% of GDP. We started off with the Ron Paul’s of the nation whining over $100 million at a time we were printing and spending trillions with no thought to fraud, waste, and abuse, which ended up being rampant (PPP anyone?). We could have easily dumped a few hundred billion into Ukraine at the onset, with no consequence outside discomfort from keyboard warriors and their conspiracy disease.
To those claiming we don’t owe them anything and American would not benefit, this is the biggest nonsense of all. American has benefited from nuclear nonproliferation and now you refuse to pay the cost. We have reneged & stabbed an ally in the back. Even worse, Zelenskyy is a modern day George Washington, fighting a much more powerful force with his rag tag, home grown band of freedom fighters. The disgust hurled at Zelenskyy, begging him to surrender, charging him with all the awful things the ******* in chief spews, bullying him into submission, attempting to extort Ukraine, is nothing short of taking a **** on George Washington’s grave and all the founding patriots. France called you and wants the Statue of Liberty back. It doesn’t belong with cowards.
Giving is easy. The message to give should be included in every post and tweet, every news article, and the first words out of every politician’s mouth. The low amount of private donations to date is a pathetic shame. We are better than this and can do much better, all with little discomfort. Instead of donating, we watch the war as if it’s World Wide Wrestling Entertainment & discuss it from our ivory tower. The rich world needs to forget the petty trivialities, the hearsay, the speculation to no end, and find its soul again.
Donate here and spread the word. Ukraine needs you: https://u24.gov.ua/
LogGrad98
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Legit one of your best posts since you went inactive. Sorry "less active". Great call out. Why is it so hard for people to see this truth? I'm in.
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idestroyedthetoilet
Well-Known Member
Although this is well said it rings hollow without security guarantees. You know this.
Trump is saying no to security guarantees as Russia says it’s a non-starter instead of siding with our ally on their non-starter. What is the purpose of this other than being an agent of Russia? Why would the art of the deal show all his cards before negotiation begins? Hurt our side? Give me one logical reason. After Ukraine said months ago they would cede territory if it means war ends under a lasting peace agreement? When it is blatantly obvious to everyone except Trump and Angry JD that Putin does not honor his neighbor’s boundaries?
Give me one reason Al. Otherwise, this is hollow.
Al-O-Meter
Well-Known Member
The mineral interests are the security guarantees.
My kid's school banned dodge ball. The directive to do so came down from the school district. The PE teachers invented a substitute game called 'Medic', which is exactly like dodge ball except that it adds a designated player who can so something I'm not clear on, but which makes the game not technically dodge ball even though it is dodge ball. The mineral interests are 'Medic'.
Putin cannot allow an American-military-staffed DMZ on their border. They supposedly went to war over concerns of NATO on their border. Putin has to be able to sell to his people that Russia won, and nobody will buy that if there is now a several-hundred mile long US military base on the Russian border. A 'mining interest' filled with American contractors is an easier sell. In function, it is a DMZ on Ukrainian land that functions as a trip wire as our obligation to defend our 'mining interests' is written into the agreement.
The truth is the 'mining interests' may never actually result in a mine worth much of anything. Technically, Ukraine already signed all of those mineral rights away to the UK for the next 100 years.
The mineral deal being signed with the US, is a pretext only for getting Americans on the ground in a way that Putin isn't forced to object to. It is better than a security guarantee written into a treaty as proven when we didn't put US soldiers on the ground in Ukraine even though we had given Ukraine a security guarantee decades ago to convince Ukraine to give up their stash of Soviet nukes.
You asked me for one reason. The one reason you ask for is this: Americans on the ground are much harder for America to walk away from.
For the past three years, Zelensky has been exactly what Ukraine needed, but he is not the guy to bring peace. Right now Ukraine needs a prick who knows how to close deals, and one of the best on the planet is offering to help. It is in Ukraine's best interests to let Trump cook.
idestroyedthetoilet
Well-Known Member
This is so flimsy a guarantee that Zelenskyy cannot ever accept it. If it is a guarantee then call it a guarantee properly. Nobody is gullible enough or near sited enough to believe Putin will honor a paper agreement without a sound guarantee after 1. he has violated all of them, and 2. The United States and Russia have violated the 1994 promise.
Defending a mine in Timbuktu is no guarantee at all. There is no obligation for any American to work there. Putin can simply leave it alone as he wars around it. Give Trump the benefit of the doubt here, an extreme stretch of offering up national security on trust alone, a trust that has been violated already by the United States, and say Putin will honor this under Trump. What happens when Trump is gone in four short years?
There is no guarantee here and as you already described it well it is a face saving agreement with no substance.
Al-O-Meter
Well-Known Member
I am well aware of Zelensky's excuses of all guarantees being to flimsy. Trump's plan is too flimsy to accept. Zelensky says that if Ukraine falls then Putin will march on Poland, a NATO country, establishing that he thinks NATO membership is to flimsy of a guarantee. In the meeting in the White House, Zelensky told Trump the Atlantic was too flimsy of a guarantee.
The problem isn't the guarantee being too flimsy. The problem is Zelensky. His position of not being willing to stop a war using the excuse that another war might start later is retarded. If all guarantees are too flimsy to be worth stopping a war, then Zelensky has to go. Personally, I don't think you are reading Zelensky correctly, and I do think he is beginning to understand reality. I do not see Zelensky as the lost cause you seem to, and I hope for the sake of the Ukrainian people that you are wrong and I am correct.
fishonjazz
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Pretty simple. trump just needs to put a security guarantee in the deal. Then we find out if zelensky really just wants the war to continue like the Russia fans say he does. But until that security is in the deal he isn't accepting it. He has spelled that out many times.
If trump really wants the war to end then just put the damn security guarantees in the deal.
Zelensky is already giving up territory in the deal. Already giving up minerals/money in the deal. Already having to watch Putin go without any punishment.
trump obviously doesn't want the war to end. trump knows that zelensky requires security guarantees in the deal. trump won't put them in the deal. trump wants the war to continue.
If trump really wants the war to end then just put the damn security guarantees in the deal.
Zelensky is already giving up territory in the deal. Already giving up minerals/money in the deal. Already having to watch Putin go without any punishment.
trump obviously doesn't want the war to end. trump knows that zelensky requires security guarantees in the deal. trump won't put them in the deal. trump wants the war to continue.
Al-O-Meter
Well-Known Member
Think so, do ya?
Zelensky's conciliatory letter to Trump suggests he's run out of options
The Ukrainian leader's climb-down on security guarantees may be because the US is the only place he can turn to, writes BBC Ukraine correspondent James Waterhouse.
www.bbc.com