jazzfan1971
Well-Known Member
Not sure that Burks wasn't ready to start the year.
Corbin's perception is different than yours
- Thread starter oldtimer
- Start date
It's impossible to know exactly when a player is ready. It's not like there is a manual of set instructions how to develop players and a timer goes off when they should be given more minutes. Also, hindsight is 20/20.
Obviously if a rookie comes out and dominates fans are going to automatically assume "Wow, he could have been doing this from day1. Why didn't that worthless coach play him?" instead of "Wow, great job coaching this rookie and giving him the best opportunity to succeed.".
Larry Miller took a two by four to Sloan and made him start DWill over Milt-effing-Palacio. That was the extreme case of handling things exactly the wrong way. That was more of a frat boy hazing by Sloan than it was intelligent coaching.
Yea because CJ, Bell and even Howard played so well and they earned their minutes. The bottom line is that Utah as an organization plays vets over rookies 90 percent of the time.
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
But that recent success is ONLY due to veterans missing games. Raja had a meltdown and instead of being punished was REWARDED with playing time. Meanwhile, a promising rookie, who by all acounts was working his *** off, gets DNP-CD's. And a couple of #3 picks were getting scant time on the court to improve, until Jefferson missed games due to his grandmother's funeral. And since there are few practices, getting actual game time is much more valuable this season.
Look at OKC. All their young guys were thrown on the court and told to learn as they went. Only winning 20 games sure didn't hurt them. And OKC then had the time to build up trade value for Jeff Green, who was a pretty good player, but one they sacrificed to get bigger inside. CJ, Howard and Raja are DEFINITELY not in the long-term plans of the Jazz. Or if they are, the future is not going to include a run at a title.
The only reason I can think of for playing any of those three major minutes was to increase trade value. Or, as Sloan used to do, to get a few more wins because a marginal vet is generally better than a new rookie. If that was the case, clearly the Jazz have learned nothing in recent history and are only giving lip service in talking about the "OKC model."
There is simply no good reason for Favors getting less than 30 mins and Kanter getting 20. Play Jefferson 25 if necessary. Play Millsap at SF for 10-15 per game. Raja, CJ and Howard should barely see the court. Burks and Hayward should each get 30 mins.
Oh yeah, I forget. Jazz are trying to make it to the 8th slot so they can get that valuable playoff experience, knowing what it's like to get swept by OKC, a team that brought their rookies along slowly in order, making them "earn" their minutes and not get discouraged by losing a lot of games in their first two years. Oh wait...
Yeah, lets compare our young guys to Durant (top 5 talent and player) and Westbrook (top 10 talent and top 20 player).
Brown Notes
Well-Known Member
As the season progresses the idea that the young players are being held back in their development by not having played starter minutes is really getting weaker. Favors, Kanter and Burks have clearly improved. Hayward seems to be doing a lot better lately too. Meanwhile Utah is poised to make a run at it. The OKC method is not the only way to create a winning situation. These vets that get so much flack are going to be the guys that know what it takes to win if we get there.
IMO if for the rest of the season the rotations are fairly similar but switch CJs minutes with Burks' posters here will be a lot happier. I think Corbin is onto something playing the 4 of them together as subs.
The bottom line is that Utah has an organization that makes the playoffs 90 percent of the time. Yes I got frustrated with Sloan's rotations from time to time. I thought he was crazy for not giving Scott Padgett and Quincy Lewis more minutes. I thought DeShawn Stevenson should have gotten more minutes as a rookie. In fact, I've thought that about pretty much every rookie. How many times was Sloan wrong? How's Morris Almond doing these days? I think Sloan was wrong about DWill and Mo Williams. Maybe Ronnie Brewer could have prevented some 50 point games, but as a rookie I doubt it (everyone said he came into training camp his second year a lot better, this was probably motivated by the fact that he didn't want to sit on the bench anymore.) I don't think he's been wrong on too many rookies. And I think Corbin's style is a LOT like Sloan and Phil Johnson.
You say this as if it's a bad thing. Teams should play their veterans. There's a reason that they are veterans. Does that mean that they don't make mistakes and eventually can't be replaced? Of course not. But the idea that we should just play our young guys based on their potential or their flashes of brilliance while playing against our opponents' 2nd units is just as ridiculous.
Brown Notes
Well-Known Member
I don't like the OKC blueprint for this reason:
OKC does not run a lot of plays offensively. They are a lot like Miami in that they play good defense and generally make a lot of individual plays offensively. That team relies very heavily on Harden, Westbrook and Durant just making spectacular individual plays. This really only works if you have multiple top 10 players.
Utah is hoping that at least one of these young guys can be like that but they also really want to run an actual offense. I know dumping the ball into a post iso situation is not a real offense but Corbin is trying to get them to run sets, set good screens and cut. Hopefully this works out and we end up with several star players that know how to run a coordinated play. This is what Sloan did with the DWill team and that offense was really, really good.
OKC does not run a lot of plays offensively. They are a lot like Miami in that they play good defense and generally make a lot of individual plays offensively. That team relies very heavily on Harden, Westbrook and Durant just making spectacular individual plays. This really only works if you have multiple top 10 players.
Utah is hoping that at least one of these young guys can be like that but they also really want to run an actual offense. I know dumping the ball into a post iso situation is not a real offense but Corbin is trying to get them to run sets, set good screens and cut. Hopefully this works out and we end up with several star players that know how to run a coordinated play. This is what Sloan did with the DWill team and that offense was really, really good.
I fixed your little typo.
green
Well-Known Member
Hmmm...How do you know Favors, Burks and/or Kanter couldn't develop into top 20 players? No one does, because no one sees them play. That's the whole point.
How about every situation is different?
The Jazz don't appear to have a single top-shelf player right now, but they do have four young guys that have played increasingly well individually, and as a team. Most rebuilding teams don't amass four lottery picks (that are not on track to bust) in two years with conceivably two more coming this year. I think AT THIS POINT, the Jazz could cut all of the young guys loose and hold their own. However, right now, we're past the trade deadline and the Jazz have a bunch of money tied up in medium to good assets. The Four are going to get at least some burn, and the team isn't embarrassing at the same time.
Corbin's done well, even if not perfect.
The Jazz don't appear to have a single top-shelf player right now, but they do have four young guys that have played increasingly well individually, and as a team. Most rebuilding teams don't amass four lottery picks (that are not on track to bust) in two years with conceivably two more coming this year. I think AT THIS POINT, the Jazz could cut all of the young guys loose and hold their own. However, right now, we're past the trade deadline and the Jazz have a bunch of money tied up in medium to good assets. The Four are going to get at least some burn, and the team isn't embarrassing at the same time.
Corbin's done well, even if not perfect.
It's possible 1 or 2 of them becomes top 20. It's possible Favors becomes top 10, but none of them are as near of sure things that Durant was.
Some players come out of the gate essentially as NBA all-stars. The large majority do not. That does not mean that our young guys can't become stars in this league, but you can rest assured that we don't have a LeBron/Durrant/Rose riding the bench. I wish we did, but we don't.
green
Well-Known Member
You missed the point.
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
But what about an Ibaka, or Green or Harden? Those guys were getting consistent and serious burn as rookies, and then increased their PT as 2nd year players. OK, Hayward has been given a lot of PT. But there's no reasom for holding back Favors in Year #2 or giving Kanter so few minutes or Burks a bunch of DNP's.
You think we're missing out on developing these guys because we might have a potential superstar on our hands. I think we have a pretty good idea of what these players can be, and are developing them appropriately.
What point do you think I missed?