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seems simple: earl + jamaal

T

theNBAnerd

Well-Known Member
the jazz have a couple of problems:

* they have a weak wing rotation because of injuries. that has led to a second unit that has trouble scoring, especially against zone defenses.
* they also have an ambiguous backup PG situation because earl, since his injury isn't playing terribly well despite his energy and leadership. tinsley's play seems to demand more minutes, but over 1.5 seasons earl has earned the benefit of the doubt and corbin wants to keep him on the floor.

don't these problems sort of solve each other? whenever matchups allow, the jazz need to play with two PGs in the second unit. this does so much to help the team.

1st of all, it gets carroll out of the rotation. teams have been blatantly daring DC to shoot, and he also can't guard any of the elite wings he has been put in front of. that's why the jazz are 5.7 pp48 worse than their opponents when he's on the floor.

2nd, it gives the jazz another scoring threat in the second unit. burks is the only guy who has been able to space the floor, but JT has shown that he has the ability to score, which might force defenses out of the zone, or at the very least alleviate some pressure off the bigs.

3rd, if teams do insist on zoning that second unit, it helps to have another ball-handler on the floor to help beat it.

4th, earl talked today about wanting to simplify things for the young guys, create more open court opportunities. if you have two guys (three really, with burks) who can take the ball and run, you're going to see a lot more transition basketball with this group. i don't think anybody wants to see carroll leading a fast break... except for maybe the other team.

i wonder if corbin has started thinking about that. here are a couple of his quotes from brian smith's notebook this morning that make me wonder if the coach is already thinking about some rotation changes that mean JT + earl playing together:

It's beginning to be more evident that we need some more scoring in that group. With Gordon being off the floor with that group and it's just Alec [Burks] and Earl and now we're playing DeMarre [Carroll] some. Teams, what they're starting to do now is zone us more with it. Because of Enes [Kanter] and Derrick [Favors] inside and their size, they can't match up. They go to a zone and we don't make perimeter shots; it's more difficult for us to get something going.
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He's not the scorer that Tinsley is. He plays and does different things for us. Jamaal scored the ball a little bit more for us. But he's doing what he did what that second group. Anytime you come off injury and you sit a few games, it takes you a little while to get your momentum back. The thing with him was to give him an opportunity to get back to that level. But I feel great about using both guys in the game as we go forward here.
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Rotations off the bench may change a little bit for us and not just with Earl — whatever gives us a better chance to match up and have a chance to win the game.
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Earl and Watson on the floor together? Barf. I guess it would be better offensively than having Carrol out there though.
 
Cyrone Torbin said:
Earl and Watson on the floor together? Barf. I guess it would be better offensively than having Carrol out there though.
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i think you mean earl and jamaal. earl and watson are the same person.

defensively, too. burks would have to guard the bigger wing player on the opposing team's bench, but when i look at the upcoming opponents, i don't see a lot of backup 2s that earl and tinsley can't guard. tonight you're talking about jamal crawford, who doesn't play physical and is mostly just a bomber. same thing for michael redd on wednesday. golden state is notorious for small backcourts, so you're probably talking about brandon rush or dorrell wright, both of whom are spot-up shooters.

seriously, i REALLY like the idea of a second unit of watson-tinsley-burks-favors-kanter. still a defensive-focused backcourt but with more scoring options and a better shot of executing and opening things up for the young bigs.
 
I don't understand this obsession with guys who "earned" their minutes. Let's see how they compare.

Leadership: Advantage Watson.
Toughness: Advantage Watson.
Time with team: Advantage Watson.
Helping the Jazz win: Tinsley.

I do not care if Watson is the second coming of Jesus. Tinsley has shown to be a far superior back PG, so he gets the minutes. And I mean every single back up PG minute, regardless of anything else, until Watson shows he gives the team a better chance.
 
SiroMar said:
Helping the Jazz win: Tinsley.
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umm... sample size.

but i don't even care, cuz i'm not even making this a tinsley vs. watson debate. i'm more about making this a watson-burks-carroll versus watson-tinsley-burks debate, and i frankly don't even think it's close.
 
theNBAnerd said:
i think you mean earl and jamaal. earl and watson are the same person.

defensively, too. burks would have to guard the bigger wing player on the opposing team's bench, but when i look at the upcoming opponents, i don't see a lot of backup 2s that earl and tinsley can't guard. tonight you're talking about jamal crawford, who doesn't play physical and is mostly just a bomber. same thing for michael redd on wednesday. golden state is notorious for small backcourts, so you're probably talking about brandon rush or dorrell wright, both of whom are spot-up shooters.

seriously, i REALLY like the idea of a second unit of watson-tinsley-burks-favors-kanter. still a defensive-focused backcourt but with more scoring options and a better shot of executing and opening things up for the young bigs.
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I really don't like any lineup with Watson in it. He isn't a terrible offensive player (actually better than Tinsley if you look at career averages from deep), but he is so oblivious to wide open opportunities and forces too many passes.
 
theNBAnerd said:
umm... sample size.

but i don't even care, cuz i'm not even making this a tinsley vs. watson debate. i'm more about making this a watson-burks-carroll versus watson-tinsley-burks debate, and i frankly don't even think it's close.
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That's fine. As long as Watson is getting minutes over Carroll because it is better for the team. Not seniority or anything else. And sample size or not, what happened should be very obvious to anyone who watched the games. The Jazz found a player who can effectively direct the second unit (something the Jazz lacked all season, even when Watson was playing well). You could see, with your own eyes, that Tinsley's second unit is VERY different from any we've seen this year. As soon as Watson comes back, it is the same old Jazz who can barely keep the 10th spot in the West. That is even the case against NJ, which was the one game the Jazz won. The team absolutely sucked whenever Watson was in. Luckily the Nets are trying for a top 3 pick.
 
SiroMar said:
That's fine. As long as Watson is getting minutes over Carroll because it is better for the team. Not seniority or anything else. And sample size or not, what happened should be very obvious to anyone who watched the games. The Jazz found a player who can effectively direct the second unit (something the Jazz lacked all season, even when Watson was playing well). You could see, with your own eyes, that Tinsley's second unit is VERY different from any we've seen this year. As soon as Watson comes back, it is the same old Jazz who can barely keep the 10th spot in the West. That is even the case against NJ, which was the one game the Jazz won. The team absolutely sucked whenever Watson was in. Luckily the Nets are trying for a top 3 pick.
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first, let me say i totally agree... corbin should always put guys on the floor that give a chance to win, and to hell with seniority, etc.

having said that, i'm mightily confused by your premise. the jazz gets 35.8 ppg from its bench, which is top 3 in the league. and earl has been the primary backup for all but like 8 of those games.
 
theNBAnerd said:
first, let me say i totally agree... corbin should always put guys on the floor that give a chance to win, and to hell with seniority, etc.

having said that, i'm mightily confused by your premise. the jazz gets 35.8 ppg from its bench, which is top 3 in the league. and earl has been the primary backup for all but like 8 of those games.
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I don't disagree that the Jazz have a high quality bench. I actually don't disagree with anything you said. But I'm just saying that Tinsley did something that was beyond simple stat comparison. The team was visibly and undeniably better when he's on the floor. During the winning streak the Jazz looked very different. Their wins against weaker teams were more impressive than the later win against NJ. I would be interested in a detailed statistical analysis of second unit performance with Watson v Tinsley.
 
A simple solution that would solve all of the Jazz problems. Just start Tinsley and move Harris at the the 2 :D.
 
theNBAnerd said:
umm... sample size.

but i don't even care, cuz i'm not even making this a tinsley vs. watson debate. i'm more about making this a watson-burks-carroll versus watson-tinsley-burks debate, and i frankly don't even think it's close.
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it doenst matter the proof is in the pudding its simple
second unit constisting of Earl burks Carrol kanter and favors. of those carol kanter and favors cant create their own shot they need a point guard that creates. so inserting jamaal with that linupe benefits kanter and favors especially.
it improves those 2 guys by leaps and bounds.
earl doesnt do ****. he just dribbles the ball up the court passes and thats it
 
there's not enough pudding for there to be any proof. still, sounds like a fun side project for some nerd to do while he's supposed to be working tomorrow.

in the meantime, here's something to ponder... for every 48 minutes with watson on the floor, the jazz are within 0.4 points of their opponent. with tinsley on the floor, the jazz lose by 4.9 points every 48 minutes.

jazz's offensive & defensive numbers with earl: 103.3 points per 100 offensive possessions, 103.9 defensive
jazz's offensive & defensive numbers with tinsley: 109.7 points offensively, 116.6 points defensively

that's a start to the discussion, and it says that you're right about tinsley's impact on the O... it's just too bad that half the game is played at the other end.
 
Anything that gets Carroll off the floor needs to be considered. Props for the idea.
 
theNBAnerd said:
there's not enough pudding for there to be any proof. still, sounds like a fun side project for some nerd to do while he's supposed to be working tomorrow.

in the meantime, here's something to ponder... for every 48 minutes with watson on the floor, the jazz are within 0.4 points of their opponent. with tinsley on the floor, the jazz lose by 4.9 points every 48 minutes.

jazz's offensive & defensive numbers with earl: 103.3 points per 100 offensive possessions, 103.9 defensive
jazz's offensive & defensive numbers with tinsley: 109.7 points offensively, 116.6 points defensively

that's a start to the discussion, and it says that you're right about tinsley's impact on the O... it's just too bad that half the game is played at the other end.
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Very good point. If only earl and jamaal were able to combine their strengths to produce one PG haha
 
nbanerd you are forgetting 1 major factor that all stats are useless.
for example the HUMAN factor, preaching about deseriving your minutes and seeing 2 whiners eg bell and watson ghet minutes they dont deserve,, it demotivates and messes with chemistry.
also how come tinsley is getting more assist with the same playerS???

watson sucks and needs to go
 
@dutch - the fact that he expressed concern over his minutes doesn't mean he didn't deserve them when he got them. ty waited to play earl until he saw in practice, etc., that he was ready to go. that's the precise definition of having to earn your minutes. once earl proved he was able to help the team, he got his minutes back. don't see what the problem is with that.

back to the original idea, a nice alternative was the shortened, big-heavy rotation corbin used in the 2nd half at portland. but that won't always work. tonight, for example, i can't imagine paul chasing the suns around the perimeter. their second unit smalls right now are telfair, redd and childress. might be the perfect opportunity for the jazz to try going small -- although a lot depends on harris' status and if earl is starting.
 
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