He'd get busted. He should give Ms. Harding a jingle.
OKC or San Antonio?
- Thread starter BYE
- Start date
Playoffs all the way! I never want Utah to be a lottery regular like the Clippers, Warriors, and Kings. Once you think let's lose and get more lottery picks, it is the wrong mentality. I think Utah would have a stronger showing against OKC so that is how I voted, but Spurs or Thunder is good for me.
mellow
Well-Known Member
Too bad the Jazz are going to play what amounts to 5 elimination games in a row just to get into the playoffs and then get beat. I believe Jazz would play the spurs more closely, but have a higher likley hood of being swept. Jazz could get absolutley blown out in a game against OKC, but have hope to steal a game in the series, maybe two if they are lucky.
freakazoid
Well-Known Member
Utah has a chance to steal one game against OKC.
Spurs sweep us, and it's not close.
Sounds like fun. Can't wait to do it again next year.
Spurs sweep us, and it's not close.
Sounds like fun. Can't wait to do it again next year.
spycam1
Well-Known Member
That's the goal, right? Just barely making the playoffs every year?
freakazoid
Well-Known Member
Yeah, the last thing we want to do is miss the playoffs by a game. Then we automatically turn into a team like the Kings, Clippers, Warriors, etc., and will lose every single year from now on. In fact, if we don't make the playoffs, we might as well just trade all of our players, as they will be mentally destroyed for the rest of their careers. We may even have to sell the team, since it will be permanently damaged goods.
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
Yep. Jazz make the playoffs this season and Greggy Boy and KOC automatically have a reason to do nothing to the roster. Heck, they might even bring back CJ. You know...with no training camp, a shortened season, injuries down the stretch, young players just starting to develop...we just don't know yet what this roster can do.
spycam1
Well-Known Member
Believe it or not, some of us are tired of the same old Jazz who make the playoffs every year, but never actually go anywhere. We had a huge opportunity to stockpile on talent using this draft and we blew it. We ****ing blew it. So excuse me for being less than optimistic about us losing out on this chance just for the sake of having our asses handed to us on national television.
Xsy
Well-Known Member
OKC is full of dumb talented kids. SAS is full of smart talented veterans. San Antonio has wiped the floor with us in every game this season. (Yeah, I know, we won one game against them, but it was without their Big Three, and we almost lost anyway.)
As for the pick, yeah, it'd be nice to have-- but there isn't anything too special with the position in which we'd be drafting. With any luck, we can trade up to it.
As for the pick, yeah, it'd be nice to have-- but there isn't anything too special with the position in which we'd be drafting. With any luck, we can trade up to it.
Sean
Well-Known Member
We blew nothing. Even making the lottery doesn't guarantee the Jazz jack ****, so stop acting like drafting 14th later this summer automatically assures Utah of great fortunes down the road. It's all a crapshoot. All you have to do is ask the handful of teams recently who've toiled in the lottery for the last umpteenth years. So don't come at me with this ******** argument that we're giving up our future for a spot in the playoffs because no one on this board knows whether that future lies in the lottery or the development of this team.
Personally, I'd rather root for a team that doesn't give up and concede the lottery because teams that do that have a high probability of being in that lottery long term than competing for a playoff spot.
So, yeah, stop whining and enjoy the run.
spycam1
Well-Known Member
No one is saying the lottery is a guarantee, I have no idea where you and others get the idea that anyone is arguing that. But at least it provides a CHANCE at getting more talent, instead of just staying where we are. And ask any scout--the 2012 draft is expected to be one of the deepest of all time.
Honest question, have you looked at any 2012 mocks? This is no normal draft, dude. The 14th pick in 2012 is as good as the 5th pick in 2011, IMO. My point is that the chances are much higher of getting a good player at #14 in this draft then any other draft. This is the year to be in the lottery.
I expect everyone on your side of the argument to see this eventually. We'll get swept by the Spurs, then we'll see several players we could have drafted late in the lottery go on to be successful. In a year or two, or probably even sooner, you'll all be wondering if it was really worth it.
Stop ragging on those of us who want more than to just "enjoy the ride" of getting knocked out of the first round year, after year.
Sean
Well-Known Member
Just because there is a chance doesn't mean we should become that team that decides taking a chance on the lottery is better than taking a chance in the playoffs. I feel confident in saying that is a dumb way to run a team because so many franchises have tried your way and failed horribly. In fact, of the teams that are lining up for the lottery this season, most have spent a good portion of the last decade stuck right in the lottery.
I wonder why that is?
So, yes, I'll happily take a playoff berth over a crapshoot pick at 14th that may or may not pan out and may or may not prove to be that beneficiary to our franchise in the long run. The fact so many of you are content with losing just because you want to draft in the lottery proves to me that this type of mindset becomes increasingly difficult to break. It's like smoking crack. Once you get the taste of the lottery, and fool yourself into believing that this is a sustainable and successful way of building a team, then when you find yourself in the same position next year, you're again wishing for the lottery. A year from there, bring on the lottery again! Who wants to be in the playoffs as an 8th seed anyway?
Before you realize it, this franchise has tolerated losing for so long to build up their team in the lottery, that they've got a loser mentality, a loser coach, loser fans and no playoff berths. That's how franchises like Charlotte and Golden State and Sacramento languish in the bottom-half of their conferences year in and year out. Oh sure, there's always that chance you get to draft a Chris Paul or Deron Williams or a LeBron James that can instantly remake your franchise. But that's not an option in this year's draft. We know, regardless of how deep it is, Utah's pick is going to be far more riskier than those picks I just mentioned.
You can pretend that the missing link is somewhere in this lottery. You can pretend that Utah will become an instant contender with just one pick. But I won't. I've seen too many teams, too many times, fail at doing what you're suggesting. So, as a fan, the first thing I want from my team is one that competes night in and night out. I've gotten that. I am excited that when all looked lost, this team still bounced back and still positioned themselves for a playoff berth, even though most had written them off a week ago, a month ago...hell, they were written off before this season started.
As a fan, this is what I want to see. Not a team that is okay with losing on the chance (and you admit it's a chance) they'll be able to better their position in the draft.
The next thing I want to see is a team that understands winning. So many franchises don't get winning. They don't know it. It's foreign to them. They have so many failed seasons that everyone, from the fans to the players to the coaches to the front office, seems to have forgotten what it takes to win. What I know is that one of our better players, who may or may not be the future, has never played in a playoff game, even though he's been in the league since 2004. What I know is that our head coach has never coached a playoff game in his life. What I know is that I have not sat in the ESA during a meaningful playoff game since the first-round series of the 2010 NBA Playoffs. I like that. I like the anticipation of a playoff game. I like being able to watch my team surprise. I like the emotion of a potential victory, even if I know deep down it's not going to amount to jack ****.
That's what being a fan is all about. You want to cheer for a team that consistently plays for the lottery, well you've got a helluva lot of options in front of you. But I want to cheer for a team that fights tooth and nail to make the postseason, even if it means they get owned in the first round, even if means they miss out on some potential that doesn't even exist yet because we don't know how the lottery will shake out.
That's why I cheer and I'm glad I'm cheering for a team that recognizes what this game is all about. If they don't make the playoffs, I would rather it come fighting down to the last second than conceding, weeks ago, their lot in life. This year's Jazz haven't accepted or conceded anything and have decided to create their own outcome.
Finally, you don't cheer for a team that gets knocked out in the first round year after year. In fact, Utah has only lost in the first round of the playoffs a handful of times and only once since their return to the playoffs in 2007 (2009). Every other year has been marked by a trip to the second round or Western Conference Finals. Which, I'm assuming, is a far better playoff success rate than most teams in the league.
I wonder why that is?
So, yes, I'll happily take a playoff berth over a crapshoot pick at 14th that may or may not pan out and may or may not prove to be that beneficiary to our franchise in the long run. The fact so many of you are content with losing just because you want to draft in the lottery proves to me that this type of mindset becomes increasingly difficult to break. It's like smoking crack. Once you get the taste of the lottery, and fool yourself into believing that this is a sustainable and successful way of building a team, then when you find yourself in the same position next year, you're again wishing for the lottery. A year from there, bring on the lottery again! Who wants to be in the playoffs as an 8th seed anyway?
Before you realize it, this franchise has tolerated losing for so long to build up their team in the lottery, that they've got a loser mentality, a loser coach, loser fans and no playoff berths. That's how franchises like Charlotte and Golden State and Sacramento languish in the bottom-half of their conferences year in and year out. Oh sure, there's always that chance you get to draft a Chris Paul or Deron Williams or a LeBron James that can instantly remake your franchise. But that's not an option in this year's draft. We know, regardless of how deep it is, Utah's pick is going to be far more riskier than those picks I just mentioned.
You can pretend that the missing link is somewhere in this lottery. You can pretend that Utah will become an instant contender with just one pick. But I won't. I've seen too many teams, too many times, fail at doing what you're suggesting. So, as a fan, the first thing I want from my team is one that competes night in and night out. I've gotten that. I am excited that when all looked lost, this team still bounced back and still positioned themselves for a playoff berth, even though most had written them off a week ago, a month ago...hell, they were written off before this season started.
As a fan, this is what I want to see. Not a team that is okay with losing on the chance (and you admit it's a chance) they'll be able to better their position in the draft.
The next thing I want to see is a team that understands winning. So many franchises don't get winning. They don't know it. It's foreign to them. They have so many failed seasons that everyone, from the fans to the players to the coaches to the front office, seems to have forgotten what it takes to win. What I know is that one of our better players, who may or may not be the future, has never played in a playoff game, even though he's been in the league since 2004. What I know is that our head coach has never coached a playoff game in his life. What I know is that I have not sat in the ESA during a meaningful playoff game since the first-round series of the 2010 NBA Playoffs. I like that. I like the anticipation of a playoff game. I like being able to watch my team surprise. I like the emotion of a potential victory, even if I know deep down it's not going to amount to jack ****.
That's what being a fan is all about. You want to cheer for a team that consistently plays for the lottery, well you've got a helluva lot of options in front of you. But I want to cheer for a team that fights tooth and nail to make the postseason, even if it means they get owned in the first round, even if means they miss out on some potential that doesn't even exist yet because we don't know how the lottery will shake out.
That's why I cheer and I'm glad I'm cheering for a team that recognizes what this game is all about. If they don't make the playoffs, I would rather it come fighting down to the last second than conceding, weeks ago, their lot in life. This year's Jazz haven't accepted or conceded anything and have decided to create their own outcome.
Finally, you don't cheer for a team that gets knocked out in the first round year after year. In fact, Utah has only lost in the first round of the playoffs a handful of times and only once since their return to the playoffs in 2007 (2009). Every other year has been marked by a trip to the second round or Western Conference Finals. Which, I'm assuming, is a far better playoff success rate than most teams in the league.
Brown Notes
Well-Known Member
Preach it, brother!
spycam1
Well-Known Member
We can argue all we want about how successful of a strategy the lottery is, but I'm convinced neither of us are going to sway each other. So I'll say this: it seems like at least my strategy, however much you may disagree with it, is a way that might help us win a championship. Yes, a championship. Not just being a "pretty good" team. So my question is this: if you don't like the draft rout, then what is your plan for winning a championship? Do you honestly believe that we have the pieces necessary? Do you think we're going to get any major free agents? Do you see us acquiring great pieces in a blockbuster trade? With a small market and typically timid front office when it comes to risky trades, I feel like the draft is our best chance at building a true contender, and the 2012 draft is the best draft to add a few pieces to our young core.
BTW, you never answered my question: have you looked at any 2012 mocks? Do you know the prospects thoroughly? You seem to ignore my comments about the strength of this draft and how the talent available at #14 is better than you could possibly hope for. It's not as much of a "crap shoot" as in other drafts--not by a long shot. Unless you are informed about the players in this draft and where they'll likely be available, I'm not sure I can take your opinion seriously in this sort of debate, since we're talking about this draft specifically, not just the draft in general.
BTW, you never answered my question: have you looked at any 2012 mocks? Do you know the prospects thoroughly? You seem to ignore my comments about the strength of this draft and how the talent available at #14 is better than you could possibly hope for. It's not as much of a "crap shoot" as in other drafts--not by a long shot. Unless you are informed about the players in this draft and where they'll likely be available, I'm not sure I can take your opinion seriously in this sort of debate, since we're talking about this draft specifically, not just the draft in general.
Sean
Well-Known Member
Everything you've said is what fans of losing franchises tell themselves every year. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to support tanking just on the off chance, a very slim chance, we might lock down a player who's good enough to make that big of difference. I would be more inclined to see your point, or at least agree with it somewhat, if the Jazz had a realistic chance of grabbing the number one pick - but they don't. To me, making the playoffs, gaining that experience, hoping the Warriors picks solidifies at 8 or worse is a far better path to prosperity than getting in this trend of building through the lottery.
As for answering your question, yes, I have gone over the picks and it doesn't change my view one inch. If I felt confident the Jazz could gain a superstar-ready player, I would be more open. But you and I both know that's not likely outside, you know, winning the lottery. So, make the playoffs and hope the Warriors don't draft 7th or greater. But there is no player that falls in the area the Jazz will likely be drafting that makes missing out a shot at the playoffs worth it. The addition of the unknown, whether he'll be that good of a pick, or who will even be available by the time Utah potentially drafts, just adds to my view.
As for answering your question, yes, I have gone over the picks and it doesn't change my view one inch. If I felt confident the Jazz could gain a superstar-ready player, I would be more open. But you and I both know that's not likely outside, you know, winning the lottery. So, make the playoffs and hope the Warriors don't draft 7th or greater. But there is no player that falls in the area the Jazz will likely be drafting that makes missing out a shot at the playoffs worth it. The addition of the unknown, whether he'll be that good of a pick, or who will even be available by the time Utah potentially drafts, just adds to my view.
spycam1
Well-Known Member
I understand your point, but you didn't address the issue I brought up: if you don't want to build a contender through the draft, then how do you want to do it? (Note I said contender, not a good team). You cannot deny that there is a hump we haven't managed to get over since Stockton and Malone--the hump from pretender to contender, and I haven't seen you, or anyone else for that matter pitch me an idea of how a small market team can win titles without building through the draft. If you have reasonable, logical ideas, I'd love to hear them. Until then, I want the picks.
For the record, and this may surprise you, I generally don't like the idea of losing for the sake of picks. This draft is the exception. I really want no part of the 2013 draft, which is why losing that GS pick this year is going to be so detrimental. I'm not totally delusional and "hooked on the draft like cocaine." This draft just stands above the rest and I would hate to see us miss out on it simply for the sake of playing four more games this season, under the claim that we're getting playoff experience. Well, who do you really think is going to be getting playoff experience? I say the vets and Hayward, not our young core, so I don't think the "playoff experience" argument is a very valid one.
For the record, and this may surprise you, I generally don't like the idea of losing for the sake of picks. This draft is the exception. I really want no part of the 2013 draft, which is why losing that GS pick this year is going to be so detrimental. I'm not totally delusional and "hooked on the draft like cocaine." This draft just stands above the rest and I would hate to see us miss out on it simply for the sake of playing four more games this season, under the claim that we're getting playoff experience. Well, who do you really think is going to be getting playoff experience? I say the vets and Hayward, not our young core, so I don't think the "playoff experience" argument is a very valid one.
spycam1
Well-Known Member
Everything you've said is what fans of mediocre franchises tell themselves every year.
And sorry, not everyone is the T-Wolves (who are actually in a pretty good position moving forward) and Warriors. Teams do not just always get stuck in the lottery once they enter it like you claim. Honestly, if we were to miss the playoffs this year, do you think we would be doomed to stay in the lottery for all eternity? Everyone who wants to get a pick or two this year wants that to be IT, no more lottery--get a final young piece or two, develop them, and hope for the best.
Sean
Well-Known Member
If I felt the Jazz could realistically build a contender with the 13th or 14th pick, by all means, I would say bite the bullet and do it. But I don't. I think more is gained by hoping that Warriors pick is no greater than it needs to be and by ultimately making the playoffs.
You might dismiss playoff experience as not being a valid argument, but when you look at the fact that one of our better players, our leading scorer, has not played in one playoff game in his eight year career, or that our head coach has never coached a playoff game, then you start seeing why it's important. Hell, this season alone should show you how the winning mentality can radically adjust the results. For a good bulk of this season, the biggest knock against the Jazz is that they're not a tough team. They don't know how to win. They lost to too many teams they had no business losing to and failed to finish games they should have won.
Maybe the Jazz is a 8th seed this year, but maybe next year, with that experience, with that winning attitude, they're a 5th seed - or better. I know we've convinced ourselves that this team, as is, probably won't contend for the championship, but it's also not a valid argument to suggest the 8th seed is the ceiling of this team. The situation evolves. Players mature. Coaches mature. Just two seasons ago, the Thunder were an 8th seed who lost 4-2 to the Los Angeles Lakers in the first round. Now, along with San Antonio, they're battling it out for the top spot in the west. And of course, before you say that I'm suggesting we'll see a similar leap, that's not my point. I'm just saying that you can't downplay the importance playoff experience, the accomplishment of actually making the postseason, has on a team.
It goes back to my original point and something that you see far too often. Teams get in the habit of losing solely because they believe they can build through the lottery. One season, they say, just once and then they'll be back! So they tank and something happens in the lottery. Maybe you're Portland and you make the wrong choice and next thing you know, the next season, your so-called savior isn't playing. He's on the bench because of injury or youth and inexperience. Now your team is struggling because they don't know how to win. They've never been winners. The coach has never made the playoffs. The star has never made the playoffs. The third-year stud has never made the playoffs. So now you're back to losing. You're not winning the games you should win because the drive, the fight isn't there. You're conditioned on buying into this nonsense that it's not that bad to lose, because you'll always be rewarded with the lottery.
To me, that possibility, whether you think it will happen or not, just isn't worth not making the playoffs. It's not worth not establishing that drive, that idea that, dammit we can do this, that ultimately benefits franchises who want to become a contender.
So, I cannot cheer for this idea that the lottery, especially when there is still a chance we get a better draft pick out of Golden State than we would on our own, is vastly better than making the playoffs.
You know, maybe I am wrong. But I don't think so and I think the growth we can get from a playoff series will be invaluable to this team. Whereas making the lottery will leave us with a lot of false hope and maybe a great deal of 'what ifs'.
You might dismiss playoff experience as not being a valid argument, but when you look at the fact that one of our better players, our leading scorer, has not played in one playoff game in his eight year career, or that our head coach has never coached a playoff game, then you start seeing why it's important. Hell, this season alone should show you how the winning mentality can radically adjust the results. For a good bulk of this season, the biggest knock against the Jazz is that they're not a tough team. They don't know how to win. They lost to too many teams they had no business losing to and failed to finish games they should have won.
Maybe the Jazz is a 8th seed this year, but maybe next year, with that experience, with that winning attitude, they're a 5th seed - or better. I know we've convinced ourselves that this team, as is, probably won't contend for the championship, but it's also not a valid argument to suggest the 8th seed is the ceiling of this team. The situation evolves. Players mature. Coaches mature. Just two seasons ago, the Thunder were an 8th seed who lost 4-2 to the Los Angeles Lakers in the first round. Now, along with San Antonio, they're battling it out for the top spot in the west. And of course, before you say that I'm suggesting we'll see a similar leap, that's not my point. I'm just saying that you can't downplay the importance playoff experience, the accomplishment of actually making the postseason, has on a team.
It goes back to my original point and something that you see far too often. Teams get in the habit of losing solely because they believe they can build through the lottery. One season, they say, just once and then they'll be back! So they tank and something happens in the lottery. Maybe you're Portland and you make the wrong choice and next thing you know, the next season, your so-called savior isn't playing. He's on the bench because of injury or youth and inexperience. Now your team is struggling because they don't know how to win. They've never been winners. The coach has never made the playoffs. The star has never made the playoffs. The third-year stud has never made the playoffs. So now you're back to losing. You're not winning the games you should win because the drive, the fight isn't there. You're conditioned on buying into this nonsense that it's not that bad to lose, because you'll always be rewarded with the lottery.
To me, that possibility, whether you think it will happen or not, just isn't worth not making the playoffs. It's not worth not establishing that drive, that idea that, dammit we can do this, that ultimately benefits franchises who want to become a contender.
So, I cannot cheer for this idea that the lottery, especially when there is still a chance we get a better draft pick out of Golden State than we would on our own, is vastly better than making the playoffs.
You know, maybe I am wrong. But I don't think so and I think the growth we can get from a playoff series will be invaluable to this team. Whereas making the lottery will leave us with a lot of false hope and maybe a great deal of 'what ifs'.