OKC or San Antonio?

[Brown Notes]

Patience, Numbs.

Al won't be here forever. Kanter will take at least 3 years to show who he really is unless we are really lucky. Favors has already been better than I expected. Honestly we kind of won the lottery with Favors.

These raw bigs rarely pan out for the teams that draft them. Where's Chandler again? With the Bulls right? What the Jazz really have to do is have PATIENCE with Kanter. Favors has already done it. Hayward has done it. Burks, he'll hopefully come along. But the great thing is it looks like we already hit with Favors. He was the key of that trade and he is a hit. What I ask of Jazz fanz is faith in KOC.

We could have tanked. IR Millsap/Harris and trade Al. Easy. But then we wouldn't have seen some of the things we have, would we? Al has easily had his most productive and conductive to winning season ever. Millsap is hungry and wants to win. Harris has been unconscious. Would you take that away from them?

I love watching this team. It reminds me of the old Browns. Nothing comes easy. If Jefferson suddenly is injected with some meanness, this is a team to be feared.

 

[franklin]

You're a fan of a team who consistently behaves in ways contradictory to your philosophies and I'm cheering for a team whose strategy I largely believe in, yet I'm the one who has no clue?

I didn't say you have no clue.

You're pushing a monotonous line that winning this year is everything. This is professional sports, not 7th grade tackle football. Programs build championships. Build is a multi-year, strategic process. All your side has going for you is this winning culture drumbeat. There isn't a smidgen of strategy inside that other than heart. Rudy had heart. I've got ****ing heart too. You want to put me on the team to create a winning culture? I'll do it I promise to never give up.

So the drumbeat drawls on and on, avoiding Spycam's question that has been posted over and over across these boards but never answered: what are you going to do to build it if not through the draft? What are you going to do when the Jazz get crushed in the first round and the players start seeing the light everyone else does--that winning a championship in Utah is nearly impossible? Is that going to continue this winning culture after your dreamy 8th spot smack down? No. That puts you right back to 2004, overpaying to pry a Boozer and Memo away, and praying that you'll score a D-Will in next year's draft.

I'd rather do it this year with a solid foundation already in place rather than watch this crumble before starting over. We don't have the 20 year dedication of Stockton and Malone anymore. It's a new era and time for this team to get into it.

--Love, frank the tank

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

I didn't say you have no clue.

You're pushing a monotonous line that winning this year is everything. This is professional sports, not 7th grade tackle football. Programs build championships. Build is a multi-year, strategic process. All your side has going for you is this winning culture drumbeat. There isn't a smidgen of strategy inside that other than heart. Rudy had heart. I've got ****ing heart too. You want to put me on the team to create a winning culture? I'll do it I promise to never give up.

So the drumbeat drawls on and on, avoiding Spycam's question that has been posted over and over across these boards but never answered: what are you going to do to build it if not through the draft? What are you going to do when the Jazz get crushed in the first round and the players start seeing the light everyone else does--that winning a championship in Utah is nearly impossible? Is that going to continue this winning culture after your dreamy 8th spot smack down? No. That puts you right back to 2004, overpaying to pry a Boozer and Memo away, and praying that you'll score a D-Will in next year's draft.

I'd rather do it this year with a solid foundation already in place rather than watch this crumble before starting over. We don't have the 20 year dedication of Stockton and Malone anymore. It's a new era and time for this team to get into it.

--Love, frank the tank

Your comprehension sucks. You can't even seem to comprehend your own comments. Here's a simple equation:

I'm guessing you couldn't set the pieces up on a chess board. Strategy? What the **** is that right amIright?

equals saying I have no clue

Every question you've asked above has been answered repeatedly by fans who believe that winning is better (strategically) than tanking. You (not me) are the one suggesting the Jazz should pursue a strategic model that has never, ever worked. I understand that you believe there is incredible value to be gained in a late lottery pick in this draft, but in my opinion, even if your highest estimates are correct, that value doesn't come close to the value of winning as many games as possible right now for the following reasons:

1) Playoff experience- Every member of the team and coaching staff benefit. It could even be argued that it would move their playoff progression forward by an entire year.
2) Trade value- Take Jefferson as an example: his value in the marketplace increases dramatically with one or more good playoff games. Imagine what a hapless team like Golden State or Charlotte might trade for him if he has some signature moments on National TV.
3) Progression- Take Harris as an example: his growth this season has been remarkable and he has thrived as the pressure has increased. Very few fans could have imagined him performing like he is at this point in the season. I want to see what at least four even more intense games would do.
4) Financial viability- Playoff games are a big deal when it comes to the bottom line of running an NBA team
5) Winning culture- You claim that the era of 20 year dedication of Stockton and Malone is over, but I would say that San Antonio is proof that it can still exist, even in a small market, if the right culture is created. I believe there are several potentially great players already on this team who will stick around for their entire careers if the Jazz handle things in the right way.
6) Being in the game- I know you believe that the Jazz couldn't possibly have any success in the playoffs this year, but the only way that statement could be true is if they don't make the playoffs. If they are in the mix there is always a chance that things could start falling their way. Watching those sorts of things happen is one of the primary reasons I'm a fan.

 

[franklin]

Your comprehension sucks. You can't even seem to comprehend your own comments. Here's a simple equation:

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

Franklin: Quit avoiding Spycam's question. Just answer the question. Why can't you idiotic pro-playoff guys answer his question?

Me: Here's the answ...

Franklin: SSSSSNNNNNNNOOOOOOORRRRRRRREEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!

 

[freakazoid]

An incredibly stupid assumption would be that the franchise is crippled without one pick.

And who the **** said that? It's not just about the pick, but the likely direction our FO will take if this team makes the playoffs. There are several possible scenarios, but let's take a look at two. Suppose Utah loses the ONE last game they played against GS. That single game could mean going into the offseason with two lotto picks and Jefferson as trade chips. This move could have been huge in getting back into going deep in the playoffs.

But instead, now we're looking at no picks and a FO who will likely be extremely hesitant to move one of our main pieces, because they don't want to risk breaking up the chemistry of a *cough**cough* playoff team. This might all be worth it for a team that was going places, but for anyone who actually believes that about a team who loses 2/3 of their road games, there is a rude awakening coming. Next year is likely to be a repeat of this year, and it didn't have to be that way.

The fans that melt over one pick are just not seeing the whole picture. .

Nope, it's exactly the opposite. It's the people who can't see past this season who fail to see the big picture. Get back to me next season, after we have watched a replay of the same pretender team who can't win on the road.

 

[mrob]

This forum just cracks me up. All of our players suck! Our management sucks! Our coach sucks! We should just lose, lose, lose until we can fill up all 14 player slots with a #1 pick.

Freak, I can guarantee you're not going to be happy with what the team does regardless of whether the team makes the playoffs or not. Your reasoning makes it pretty clear that you think the FO is run by a bunch of idiots. That being the case, it shouldn't matter whether we make the playoffs, as they will find a way to screw up the offseason anyway.

When the team was holding on to DWill, Boozer, AK, and Okur and were trying to win, the FO were idiots because (in your opinion) they failed to realize that the team could never win. Now, the team has shed 90% of those players and replaced them with several lottery picks ... and guess what, they are still idiots apparently because they don't want to lose on purpose and get more lottery picks.

Pretty much done with this discussion. For those who are "championship or bust", just remember that there are 29 other teams out there looking to do the same. The best your can hope for is to put yourself in a better position because there are so many variables year in and year out, that there is no right answer.

My opinion is that you can take the route you're proposing and just as easily end up the same or worse, but in the mean time, damaged your brand by losing when you didn't have to.

I don't have a crystal ball either. I believe this team has the pieces in place (or can get some through trades and FA) to compete for a championship. It might not happen. But, heck, there are no guarantees one way or the other.

I'll continue to support a strategy that allows me to root for my team game after game with no ulterior motives.

 

[freakazoid]

Freak, I can guarantee you're not going to be happy with what the team does regardless of whether the team makes the playoffs or not. Your reasoning makes it pretty clear that you think the FO is run by a bunch of idiots. That being the case, it shouldn't matter whether we make the playoffs, as they will find a way to screw up the offseason anyway.

When the team was holding on to DWill, Boozer, AK, and Okur and were trying to win, the FO were idiots because (in your opinion) they failed to realize that the team could never win. Now, the team has shed 90% of those players and replaced them with several lottery picks ... and guess what, they are still idiots apparently because they don't want to lose on purpose and get more lottery picks.

You obviously don't spend much time here, or you'd know that this is complete bull ****. I have always supported KOC, and have defended Corbin 95% of the time. I like the job they're doing, but that won't change my mind on who we are as a team and what the next best step is.

If you want to swig the kool-aid and pretend that a team that loses 2/3 of their road games is just suddenly going to figure it out because we extend our season by 4-5 games, then be my guest. Reality is a cold, hard bitch for those who like to live in fantasy land. For me, I love my team and hope for them to do as well as possible, but that includes the long term and not just for the next few weeks. I'm not going to let my immediate hopes cloud my vision as to where this team actually is, as currently constructed.

 

[mrob]

a FO who will likely be extremely hesitant to move one of our main pieces, because they don't want to risk breaking up the chemistry of a *cough**cough* playoff team. This might all be worth it for a team that was going places, but for anyone who actually believes that about a team who loses 2/3 of their road games, there is a rude awakening coming. Next year is likely to be a repeat of this year, and it didn't have to be that way.

Sorry if I misread what you meant, but this statement sounds like you don't trust that the FO will continue to make good decisions if they managed to make it to the playoffs. It sounded like you were saying that the FO needed to be "saved from themselves" by not making the playoffs. Otherwise, they would surely make a number of poor decisions.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

You obviously don't spend much time here, or you'd know that this is complete bull ****. I have always supported KOC, and have defended Corbin 95% of the time. I like the job they're doing, but that won't change my mind on who we are as a team and what the next best step is.

If you want to swig the kool-aid and pretend that a team that loses 2/3 of their road games is just suddenly going to figure it out because we extend our season by 4-5 games, then be my guest. Reality is a cold, hard bitch for those who like to live in fantasy land. For me, I love my team and hope for them to do as well as possible, but that includes the long term and not just for the next few weeks. I'm not going to let my immediate hopes cloud my vision as to where this team actually is, as currently constructed.

Yeah mrob, it is outside the realm of possibility that this young team has the potential to improve as a result of what they've been through this season or what they might go through if they extend the season. They lost 2/3 of their road games this year and that means they will continue to do so, ad infinitum, unless we can somehow grab a late lottery pick in the greatest of all NBA drafts which just happens to be coming up in a few short months.

 

[freakazoid]

Yeah mrob, it is outside the realm of possibility that this young team has the potential to improve as a result of what they've been through this season or what they might go through if they extend the season. They lost 2/3 of their road games this year and that means they will continue to do so, ad infinitum, unless we can somehow grab a late lottery pick in the greatest of all NBA drafts which just happens to be coming up in a few short months.

Lol, once again, for those of you who are slower than normal, this isn't just about a single pick(trade asset), but the direction our FO is likely to take if we do make the playoffs.

As always, we shall find out soon enough who is right.

 

[Dr. Jones]

wrong thread

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

Lol, once again, for those of you who are slower than normal, this isn't just about a single pick, but the direction our FO is likely to take if we do make the playoffs.

As always, we shall find out soon enough who is right.

It's a good thing we have smart people like you to save all the rest of us dopes (including the dopes who own and manage the team) from ourselves. I'm interested how you will ever know who is right, though, because all I will ever know is whether the path we ended up traveling worked or not.

 

[franklin]

It's a good thing we have smart people like you to save all the rest of us dopes (including the dopes who own and manage the team) from ourselves. I'm interested how you will ever know who is right, though, because all I will ever know is whether the path we ended up traveling worked or not.

When did you become a troll? I love your earlier work and this is kind of disappointing.

 

[Brown Notes]

And who the **** said that? It's not just about the pick, but the likely direction our FO will take if this team makes the playoffs. There are several possible scenarios, but let's take a look at two. Suppose Utah loses the ONE last game they played against GS. That single game could mean going into the offseason with two lotto picks and Jefferson as trade chips. This move could have been huge in getting back into going deep in the playoffs.

But instead, now we're looking at no picks and a FO who will likely be extremely hesitant to move one of our main pieces, because they don't want to risk breaking up the chemistry of a *cough**cough* playoff team. This might all be worth it for a team that was going places, but for anyone who actually believes that about a team who loses 2/3 of their road games, there is a rude awakening coming. Next year is likely to be a repeat of this year, and it didn't have to be that way.

Ah, so this is really all about moving Jefferson? He has value regardless of any other assets. The GS pick is flat out not in Utah's control. Losing games on purpose proves to the players that the organization is willing to quit on them regardless of how hard they work for it. That is bad business for a franchise that has a history of struggling to attract and keep players, and has the potential of nuclear level unintended consequences. What KOC is doing is much, much better for the team.

Nope, it's exactly the opposite. It's the people who can't see past this season who fail to see the big picture.

Considering that the basic idea of promoting a post season would be the concept of the coaches and players growing and learning in the competitive pressure of a playoff series, this statement seems willfully ignorant. I don't see a lot of honks in here calling for the LOB trophy this year. Except HH that is.

Get back to me next season, after we have watched a replay of the same pretender team who can't win on the road.

Haha, okay. This argument is getting tired.

 

[NAOS]

for the 20 people (so far) that voted for the Spurs:

check out the insane efficiency of Duncan, Ginobili, and Parker versus the Lakers tonight:
https://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=320420024
hell, look at the efficiency of the entire team.

I think I respect Popovich more than any other person affiliated with NBA. I won't cheer for him while the Jazz are still competing.... but, yeah, the dude's amazing.

 

[Dr. Jones]

^^^^^^^^ most must agree. Obligatory **** the spurs.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

When did you become a troll? I love your earlier work and this is kind of disappointing.

You said I don't have the strategic sense to correctly set up a chess board.

Apologize.

 

[Dr. Jones]

You said I don't have the strategic sense to correctly set up a chess board.

Apologize.

Gotta say, I was thinkin that FRankLin was back-peddling ..

 

[NAOS]

Lol, once again, for those of you who are slower than normal, this isn't just about a single pick(trade asset), but the direction our FO is likely to take if we do make the playoffs.

As always, we shall find out soon enough who is right.

I hear you, and I like a lot about what you say.
But here's a little addition to this:
the jazz are very literally in a situation that won't allow a holding pattern. You don't let two #3 picks sit on the bench for much longer, and you don't let Al or Millsap leave without getting some assets in return. They also have a sizable TPE that gets more valuable when some team tries to shave salary for DWill and/or Howard.

I really think they can get something for Al and/or Devin that will make them players in this draft if they want to be.