There has never been a NBA team full of completely happy NBA players. Everyone wants more time and more shots.
Welcome back to Salt Lake - Mo Williams
- Thread starter The Midnight
- Start date
There has never been a NBA team full of completely happy NBA players. Everyone wants more time and more shots.
Are you really this dumb in real life? I hope not and doubt it. Also, how do you know what KOC asked for? Maybe he got denied and got the best he could. He wanted Mo Will, he nabbed Mo Will.
Where do people get this idea that Harris is better than Mo -- it's like the cliche of comparing apples to oranges. They do different things and have different games. Mo is a better scorer and shooter. Harris is a better penetrator and distributor. I think a sign that the Jazz are planning to trade Harris is that they picked up Tinsley's option. Tinsley is the best distributor of all the point guards the Jazz have at this moment.
jazzfan1971
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure we could have gotten much more. Problem is that Odom had a buyout for 2.5 mil or so. So, Dallas's incentive to trade him was minimal. Clippers might have had a little more incentive, but, they were giving up a pretty good player for a guy who was pretty bad last year. They might have asked for more as well if you ask me. so, the incentive for them to add more to the deal was extremely minimal.
Add to that the Lakers who could have also stepped in with their TPE and you have a situation where the Jazz had extremely little leverage. Dallas was probably willing to walk if it cost them more, and the Clippers were probably willing to walk if it cost them more, and even if they weren't willing to walk there was another team waiting in the wings to do the deal. My guess is that Dallas and the Clippers really didn't want to make the Lakers better so they preferred to deal with Utah.
You need leverage to squeeze more out of a trade and I just don't think there was much to be had for KOC. It was probably a take it or leave it type deal and he decided it was the best he was going to get for the TPE.
Add to that the Lakers who could have also stepped in with their TPE and you have a situation where the Jazz had extremely little leverage. Dallas was probably willing to walk if it cost them more, and the Clippers were probably willing to walk if it cost them more, and even if they weren't willing to walk there was another team waiting in the wings to do the deal. My guess is that Dallas and the Clippers really didn't want to make the Lakers better so they preferred to deal with Utah.
You need leverage to squeeze more out of a trade and I just don't think there was much to be had for KOC. It was probably a take it or leave it type deal and he decided it was the best he was going to get for the TPE.
jazzfan1971
Well-Known Member
I think I'm a better distributor than Harris. So, I'd imagine even if Mo is a terrible distributor he's on par with Harris.
billyshelby
Well-Known Member
1. Even if Mo is a longterm piece, we don't need to acquire him at subpar value now. We can just sign him when we think he is since we'll have enormous cap room. And the Bird Rights on Mo are negligible.
2. I highly disagree if KOC thought Mo was more valuable as a TPE chip than waiting. We have until December. The FA season hasn't started. Players haven't got hurt in a season that will start much earlier than last year. I'd rather gamble losing the TPE than taking Mo straight up UNLESS there was a plan in place to flip Mo. But that's obviously not the case.
This just wasn't an effective move. I'd take any 20ish 1st round pick, or alternately a delayed protected 1st, for our TPE than getting Mo for a year. KOC's comments about Mo being a 'huge mistake' only confirms my belief he allowed himself to get snookered when he could have made LA and Dallas bleed to get what he wanted.
Gyp Rosetti
Banned
True, Mo Will was a huge steal. Great defense. Great facilitator. The best he could would have been to say, no thanks. I would just about guarantee the two teams would have budged. Unless the 50th pick in the draft has all of a sudden become gold.
GVC
Well-Known Member
Mo can still be traded, and probably has more short-term value to a contender than a TPE. If KOC thinks it'll be easier to acquire longterm assets trading Mo than through the use of a TPE, and Dallas and the Clips were willing to walk away from the deal, the Jazz still put themselves in a better position moving forward. I think it's far too early, and I have far too little information, to predict what the NBA trade market will be like in December. It's entirely possible all teams involved are better off with this deal.
If Mo and Harris both play out this season with the Jazz, the trade will have been a waste. If the Jazz aren't able to use this trade to acquire some decent longterm assets this season, ditto.
GVC
Well-Known Member
Obviously, KOC believes the Jazz have improved their position with this trade. Maybe he wasn't willing to get caught up in a game of chicken and squander that away.
billyshelby
Well-Known Member
1. We don't have to know what the trade market will be like in December. There's a ton of time before then, and plenty of teams that might be desperate to offload a contract for free in order to get in on this year's FA crop.
2. Say LA and Dallas were ready to move on if we didn't sign on. So what? Our leverage is we can still use our TPE elsewhere, we want a pick, and if they're not giving us one we'll happily wait.
If Harris gets dealt, it will get spun as "KOC was able to deal Harris as a result of acquiring Mo." That's a fallacy. He was able to absorb less pain in that scenario only.
The reality is we only get value in this deal if Mo is dealt, and then what we deal him for has to be greater than what we could have got if we kept the TPE and waited for a pick. There is a risk to that which we have now avoided, but we didn't get back the pick we should have got with the TPE...at least for now. We'll see how it plays out.
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
I agree. R
And I think billyshelby is missing an important point. Really, the value to Dallas was only $2.4M. They could have waived Odom for that amount. And he would have been able to sign with the Clippers as a FA for the mid-level exception (or whatever they now call it). LA and Dallas did NOT need a 3rd team to get the deal done. Sure, there was a SMALL risk Odom would have gone elsewhere as a FA. Perhaps a .000001% chance. He wanted to return to LA and I guarantee you the Lakers had no interest in reacquiring him.
Do we know if KOC was approached by LAC or did he make the enquiry about Mo? That would be a key piece of information. WE assume it was the Clippers looking to dump salary in order to acquire Odom. But perhaps KOC was anxious to acquire a starting PG in order to do other deals later.
You can't look at all deals in a vacuum. Seriously, we're mad at KOC for not demanding a 2nd-rounder? I'm happy because we now have teh flexibility to trade Harris and Jefferson for any position player or picks. WE don't necessarily have to get a PG in return for Harris nor a center for Al.
GVC
Well-Known Member
Might? Which ones? For which free agents?
Which has some risk attached to it. KOC obviously thinks the Jazz have bettered their hand with this deal.
Doesn't absorbing less pain have some value?
Yep. That's what I've been driving at. I have strong reactions, both positive and negative, to some moves, but this one's a "wait and see" for me.
Pretty much everyone in the media is saying what a steal this is for the Jazz but it's a good thing we have Billshelby to set us straight.
theNBAnerd
Well-Known Member
august through december is not a great time to find teams desperate to make trades. trade flurries happen at the draft, in july, and at the deadline. i guess we could have saved the TPE for a week, but there was no guarantee we would get mo if we did.
side note: i love how everybody thinks there's no trade market for harris because of his age and his contract, but everyone is sure we can flip mo for an awesome talent despite the fact that he's older and has basically the same contract and not as good statistically.
side note: i love how everybody thinks there's no trade market for harris because of his age and his contract, but everyone is sure we can flip mo for an awesome talent despite the fact that he's older and has basically the same contract and not as good statistically.
GVC
Well-Known Member
Who said anything about flipping Mo for an awesome talent? The Jazz just got Mo for a TPE. It seems as though most posters expect to get young pieces and picks for Harris.
I doubt that asking for a low-leve asset to build with (2nd rounder/Crowder) would've made Dallas turn away. I like Mo a million times more than Harris as a longterm piece (shooting ages very well), but only at the right price. As it stands, he's a free agent after this year, and this year isn't a year the Jazz will compete for a championship.
I suppose this is 'wait and see', but KOC shot a 20-footer on this one instead of trying to get to the rim.
I suppose this is 'wait and see', but KOC shot a 20-footer on this one instead of trying to get to the rim.
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
If we end up keeping both, then we have quite the array of expirings to offer: Jefferson (very high); Harris (high); and Mo (medium). All three would also provide good value to contenders (if Utah isn't in the hunt).
With a very punitive tax going into effect (2013 right?), I think some decent vets will be available to teams that have room to absorb some salaries. I'm not saying we take on bad contracts (i.e. for guys that have little value as a player). But there are some vets out there who are being overpaid, who will have to be dealt by their existing teams. And financially, the Jazz are in good shape right now, with no onerous future contracts.
freakazoid
Well-Known Member
I think it's quite possible that we are still feeling the effects of teams cleaning house in preparation of going into the lockout, and the opportunities normally available may just not be there.
Or maybe he just has something bigger on the grill involving Devin, and he didn't want to have to worry about looking for a PG later.
Either way, you're not usually someone who jumps to conclusions with KOC in situations like this. Let's leave that to BR/KOCBG.
billyshelby
Well-Known Member
I think it's quite possible that we are still feeling the effects of teams cleaning house in preparation of going into the lockout, and the opportunities normally available may just not be there.
Or maybe he just has something bigger on the grill involving Devin, and he didn't want to have to worry about looking for a PG later.
Either way, you're not usually someone who jumps to conclusions with KOC in situations like this. Let's leave that to BR/KOCBG.
I've been very clear that I love KOC and I think he's always been shrewd. The Al and Deron deals were great deals as I've also already said. And my problem isn't with Mo who is definitely an add. But bottom line, we didn't get enough in Mo to make giving away our TPE worth it. This will get spun and spun as the Jazz got a player for free, but the Jazz could have gotten Mo in addition to a pick.
Most importantly, if they tried and absolutely couldn't get a pick out of the deal, they should have walked away. Holding on to the TPE, and whatever risk they incurred by doing so, is worth more than getting Mo and hoping to get something for him at a later time. We devalued our TPE in this situation.