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Welcome back to Salt Lake - Mo Williams

burks is not a great ball-handler right now. he's an adequate ball-handler.

i'll concede on hayward, though. jazz had a whole new look when they let hayward create last season.
 
I'm not saying the Jazz should do it by committee.
I don't see Burks and Hayward (as primary ball handlers) as any less traditional than Westbrook-Harden or James-Wade (ahem, championship strategy).

^ I'm not making a comparison on talent here... just strategy.

The Jazz know as well as anybody that the PG prospects are poor (in this past draft and in future drafts). The fact that they went after Mo and didn't go after Lillard or Marshall (at least not hard enough), suggest to me that they are ready to put the ball in the hands of the two guys who want the ball and who are already on the team.

I could be wrong.
 
NAOS said:
this qualifies your argument a lot.

Q: Are these strategic touches enough to make up for his ineffectiveness in defense and in transition (on both sides of the ball)?

A: ...
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Definitely with the right supporting cast. Jazz have zero perimeter defense. Add Favors, a guy like Iggy and a half decent poing guard and Jefferson's interior defense becomes a nice comodity. Guy is pretty damn good defending the post and is nowhere near as bad on help defense as advertised. Everyone on the Jazz has been bad at help D because they've needed way too much of it--thanks CJ Miles.

As far as transition, I don't recall bigs like Shaq being excellent in transition (especially during his high impact years). You don't need five guys to run transition (2 or 3 is ideal) and you don't need your lowest defender to outrun everyone else on the court. If anything, I'd expect the guy getting the most rebounds and making outlet passes to be the last one down the court. Jazz were spoiled with Malone being able to do so but he's one of the few exceptions.
 
Jefferson is one of the worst defenders I've ever seen when he even has to think about guarding a ball-handler. Maybe the only thing Shaq-like about the guy.
 
NAOS said:
I'm not saying the Jazz should do it by committee.
I don't see Burks and Hayward (as primary ball handlers) as any less traditional than Westbrook-Harden or James-Wade (ahem, championship strategy).

^ I'm not making a comparison on talent here...
Click to expand...

I guess I wasn't clear enough.

Talent-level has to be taken into consideration here. Miami's problem is that they have (or had) two really good ballhandlers that needed the ball in their hands, plus a "PG". OKC is in a similar position where they're playing 2-3 players that on other teams could be the primary ballhandler.

The Jazz appear to be exploring this strategy with guys that have yet to thrive as primary ballhandlers. Mo included (he's been the best of the three, obviously, but he's at his best playing off other players). The Jazz had better hope that at least one of them really breaks out, or you're going to be more like Indiana when **** gets tough (no one is good enough to step up and/or the coaches themselves don't know what plays to run/what player's hands to put the ball in).
 
I'm going to be a homer and say that Hayward is ready for a dramatically increased role. Last year's offense was so one-dimensional and it was obviously our achilles heel; I think they've got to be working on an overhaul.

Anyway, as long as we have the perimeter defenders so that Hay doesn't need to take too tough an assignment, I think he is ready.

I have high hopes for Burks, too. After all, this was his job in college.

^ homer post ^ informed by current movement.
 
Thinking about the 2000's Pistons model, the most important player on that team (at least offensively) was Chauncey Billups because he didn't need the ball in his hands to be a factor in a play, but when he used a possession, he used it extremely efficiently on average (shot and made a ton of 3s, got to the line at a superb rate and converted once there at an elite clip). Even though he never has been a crazy assist-centric PG, he helps his teams in practically as effective ways as his teammates are able to harmoniously use possessions without him, thus making them a harder team to defend.

I'm probably late to the party on this conclusion. Oh well.
 
....so I'm not all that familiar with Mo's game. Is he a true point guard....or does he like to shoot? Is he a good outside shooter? Does he play any defense whatsoever? Does he make his teammates better....or is he in it for himself? How much are we paying him? Can we unload him after next year without any problems?
 
Hayward can't drive. I don't see him ever being effective as a primary ball handler, and he wasn't even very good on PnR's. That said, he could improve dramatically if he can learn to pull up in the lane, and he can definitely be more effective cutting to the hoop (not just scoring but playmaking.) Hayward's a guy who needs to get the ball, not start with it.
 
carolinajazz said:
....so I'm not all that familiar with Mo's game. Is he a true point guard....or does he like to shoot? Is he a good outside shooter? Does he play any defense whatsoever? Does he make his teammates better....or is he in it for himself? How much are we paying him? Can we unload him after next year without any problems?
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holy ****
 
billyshelby said:
Hayward can't drive. I don't see him ever being effective as a primary ball handler, and he wasn't even very good on PnR's. That said, he could improve dramatically if he can learn to pull up in the lane, and he can definitely be more effective cutting to the hoop (not just scoring but playmaking.) Hayward's a guy who needs to get the ball, not start with it.
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this doesn't cut directly against what I'm saying. I fully expect Mo to trot down the floor with the ball. I just want us setting a few screens and picks for Hayward so that he can GET the ball with space to work and cutters moving. Hayward makes good reads.
 
Mo's a dead-eye shooter that doesn't do a whole lot else. Doesn't penetrate very well, not a floor general, and not a great defender. He's complete enough of a player that when paired with him being pretty smart and not an ******* makes him a pretty good overall player.

Short version, he's a shooter.
 
NAOS said:
this doesn't cut directly against what I'm saying. I fully expect Mo to trot down the floor with the ball. I just want us setting a few screens and picks for Hayward so that he can GET the ball with space to work and cutters moving. Hayward makes good reads.
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*Capable of making good reads. The kid disappeared against the Spurs and looked nothing short of the frightened child among men that he's made habit of periodically reminding us fans of.

Hayward is good at cutting and driving off headfakes. He desperately needs to improve his shooting before becoming a meaningful NBA player.

billyshelby said:
Hayward can't drive. I don't see him ever being effective as a primary ball handler, and he wasn't even very good on PnR's. That said, he could improve dramatically if he can learn to pull up in the lane, and he can definitely be more effective cutting to the hoop (not just scoring but playmaking.) Hayward's a guy who needs to get the ball, not start with it.
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He drives fine. It's using the toolbag to finish that's his achiles heal. Instead of pulling up or floating or drawing contact and then getting a shot of or step back fade aways or excellerating upwards after changing directions, he runs into trouble and jumps before making his pass. He needs to add tools to become efficient. He has the opportunity of being great when he does.
 
Mo is a shooter, but what good are a bunch of shooters if nobody can drive? Dallas gets through this with relentless PnR, but we barely run PnR, and they at least have Terry. I'm trying to picture an offense without anybody who can drive and it's ugly looking.
 
billyshelby said:
Mo is a shooter, but what good are a bunch of shooters if nobody can drive? Dallas gets through this with relentless PnR, but we barely run PnR, and they at least have Terry. I'm trying to picture an offense without anybody who can drive and it's ugly looking.
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Burks.

Also, post offense can start to make a little more sense.
 
Hayward can also get in the lane quite well, but he's not going to do it off the dribble without a pick (Burks has the tools to do that, though). That's fine.
 
I declared it as a homer post.

Anyway, the offense last year did about as little as possible to help Hayward. No PnRs, virtually no set-ups of any kind. He was told to roam for Jefferson's scraps and to shoot it from wherever he found them.

We can do a lot more to make him comfortable (get him shots where and how he wants them). In those scenarios, he DOES make good reads (considering his experience).
 
I dont think we had a player that could drive for 15 plus years and we did quite well basing our offense off pnr, iso, and screens.

We called it the Stockon and Malone era.
 
NAOS said:
I declared it as a homer post.

Anyway, the offense last year did about as little as possible to help Hayward. No PnRs, virtually no set-ups of any kind. He was told to roam for Jefferson's scraps and to shoot it from wherever he found them.

We can do a lot more to make him comfortable (get him shots where and how he wants them). In those scenarios, he DOES make good reads (considering his experience).
Click to expand...

Hayward was featured a ton last year. The problem is he's better off ball at this stage in his career and the Jazz offense was horrible at running much of anything. That starts with Harris #1 and runs everywhere from CJ/Raja to the Millsap-Jefferson combo getting in each other's way.

The league has turned to isolation because the talent level is high enough to squeeze the most efficiency out of mismatches. The Jazz aren't going to get much offense until they find at least one. Jefferson's post was the closest thing to it and it's just too easy to stop without a group of shooters with high enough basketball IQ to run inside an offense.
 
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