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What's JazzFanz's stance on Marriage Equality?

Just a side note. The anti-marriage crowd are on the losing side. The trend for wider acceptance is undeniable and irreversible. I'm not saying you should conform to the zeitgeist, but know that your opinion will be among all of those who opposed expanding rights and equality through out history. In 20 years, people will even stop acknowledging the role of religion in the establishment of such views, and appeal to "interpretation" and modernization as they do now with women's rights.
 
But if a homosexual couple, legally married, follows every other requirement, what is to stop them from demanding that they should be able to participate in these sacred temples, and to possibly even litigate to do so?

Name the churches in the last 45 years that was forced, against its wishes, to host an interracial marriage.

Short list, isn't it? Even if people tried to sue to force a church (as opposed to us a public space that belonged to a church) to host a wedding, they would be laughed out of court.
 
In my opinion there is one aspect that should be different from a legislative stand point - the ability to raise children. And what I'm really getting at here is the ability for same-sex couples to adopt children (obviously, because they cannot 'make' children of their own).

I know that a lot of same-sex couples are loving people (similar to the different-sex couples counterparts). But if we are to have the children's best interest at heart, I think the natural thing to do is to have them raised in a family where there are both male and female role models.

Somebody made an argument in this thread earlier that having 2 parents is better than having just 1 parent. But are you saying same-sex couples will never break up and go their separate ways? There is no guarantees..

Based on this I see a reason for having a distinction between marriage and civil union..

I'm all for same-sex couples to have ALL the same rights that Xsy talked about earlier... except when it comes to adoption of children.

There is no legislation that I'm aware that states that one has to be married in order to adopt. Adoption agencies can choose their own policies on who they'll allow to adopt, but there's no law requirement stating one has to be married. This makes your argument irrelevant, really.
 
Somebody made an argument in this thread earlier that having 2 parents is better than having just 1 parent. But are you saying same-sex couples will never break up and go their separate ways?

Actually, they said two gay parents were better than no parents.

If there a surplus of people wanting to adopt, or a suplus of children waiting to be adopted? IIRC, once you go above the age of 2, there are more of the latter. Do they go parentless rather than go to same-sex couples?
 
Actually, they said two gay parents were better than no parents.

If there a surplus of people wanting to adopt, or a suplus of children waiting to be adopted? IIRC, once you go above the age of 2, there are more of the latter. Do they go parentless rather than go to same-sex couples?

Depends on the potential parents. I'd rather have my kid go to a pack of hungry wolves than let someone like The Thriller or The Black Swordsman have them.
 
Just like if you are dating a girl and some people come along to harrass you over it, you don't have any right to expect them to respect your dating. After all, they have every right to say you're a father, you should be living like a monk if you can't live with the mother of your girls, and you're not allowed to marry anyone else, ever. Right?

Actually yes they do have the right to say that you twit. Doesn't mean I have to listen.

As for you patheic attempt to relate me to a gay individual in this scenario. FAIL!!!!!!

Do you see me marching in a "straight pride" march? God I am glad you are on ignore. Stupid me for not logging in before I got on so I had to see your worthless, horribly failing, attempts to contribute to this board.
 
Just so I know, what can a Man+Woman couple do that a Man+Man couple cannot do when it comes to raising kids?
 
Just so I know, what can a Man+Woman couple do that a Man+Man couple cannot do when it comes to raising kids?

Play for the Utah Jazz.

Oh wait, that's what a man+man couple can do.
 
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Actually yes they do have the right to say that you twit. Doesn't mean I have to listen.

As for you patheic attempt to relate me to a gay individual in this scenario. FAIL!!!!!!

Of course. I never, not once, considered you would show empathy.

Do you see me marching in a "straight pride" march?

I just referred to you dating in public. I guess you don't do that? Do you feel you should be free to do that?
 
Some people thought that NOT separating blacks from whites was insulting, and that interracial marriage should be legalized against. Those people argued using very similar arguments you're making here.

Basically, here's a conversation your argument is making with a homosexual couple wanting to marry.

"We can't marry?"

"No."

"Why?"

"Because."

"...Because why?"

"Because I believe you shouldn't."

"Why should you dictate what our relationship can and can't be?"

"Because my moral code, whether or not you believe in anything near it or not, dictates that what you're doing is immoral/sinful/wrong (all words you'd insert here translate to wrong) and I should have the ability to dictate what you can or cannot do, since you are sinful."

Anyway you try to argue it, you're putting gay people who want to marry on a lower plane then you. You're the superior. And you think that gay people are going to just say OK and not think you're an arrogant *******?

I don't have an axe to grind here (pardon expression). First, if I understand correctly, a civil union and common law marriage are not identical. There may be some rights/privileges that married couples have that same-sex couple don't have. I'm not an expert on this. If civil union and marriage are really that close to the same, I'd see that as already a big concession and be disappointed by that. If it were really up to me, I'd basically treat it as a form of 'co-tenancy' and leave it that. Call me old fashioned.

Some people who are homosexual are really excellent and admirable people--smart, kind-natured, reasonable, peaceful, professional, dedicated, etc. I have nothing against these people, or any decent people, and I'm not here to pass judgment on these people. They are free to pursue happiness like anyone else. What we're discussing is the legal definition (and privilege?) of marriage. But there's a difference between the people and the practice. I can't say that these people are good because they practice homosexuality, or that they wouldn't be good people if they didn't practice homosexuality.

I said earlier in the thread that I think homosexuality is ultimately mentally and physically unhealthy, without bringing spirituality into the discussion. I can only say this based on what I've observed with other people who do this long term. Some of them have real health problems. Many people who have this lifestyle do see it as a vice, an indulgence, or a bad habit, and if they're really being honest many will admit that it seems unnatural to them or that they're conflicted over it. I know someone who moved to San Francisco and tried that lifestyle out of curiosity. It can go downhill pretty quickly. Maybe San Francisco is different from other places, but I won't get into all that goes on here. Even the public parades have people dancing around naked, dresslng in drag, like clowns or like animals, smacking each other or hitting each other with whips. To me, these particular people (who don't represent all gays, I assume) are knowingly making a mockery of themselves, lashing out with spite towards themselves and each other, shoving their gear in each other's face, and basically lowering the boundaries of what would be considered acceptable public behavior.

If this thing happened openly in Salt Lake City, I honestly don't know what would happen. I assume many of these people would get arrested and they even be fortunate if some onlookers didn't physically attack them.

Maybe this is the extreme, but where do you draw the line? If hypothetically you're sitting in the state legislature what are you supposed to do--make a statement that this lifestyle comprises a legitimate form of marriage? Obviously, some value judgment has to be made. Some say yes. Some say no. I guess that's why it goes to a vote.

If you think this makes me an arrogant *******, that's fine. It's your call. I can respect you, even if I don't respect everything you believe or do.
 
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This right here is the most offensive thing you can say about homosexuality. Homosexuality is a choice? Have you seen the suicide numbers for homosexual youth? Do you not understand why people spend so many years hiding in the closet? Its because they're trying to force themselves into heteronormative behavior.

No one would CHOOSE to be gay. Too many kids kill themselves because they can't choose to be heterosexual.

Seriously-- look at the numbers of LGBT suicides/suicide attempts compared to non-LGBT suicide/suicide attempts.

That alone is enough proof, in my opinion, that homosexuality is NOT a choice. "God" gave us free will, sure, but you can't will your hair to change color, you can't will your skin to change color, and you can't will your sexual preference... unless you're bi, and you can swing both ways.


but gays are destroying everything

eg glee.
the gayness destroyed glee for me.
because they wanna flaunt it in ya face.
 
Just so I know, what can a Man+Woman couple do that a Man+Man couple cannot do when it comes to raising kids?

I think they are just thinking of the stereotypes that mothers/fathers can be. Most people think of the mom as the warm and caring one and the dad as the tougher, more goal oriented teacher.
 
I don't have an axe to grind here (pardon expression). First, if I understand correctly, a civil union and common law marriage are not identical. There may be some rights/privileges that married couples have that same-sex couple don't have. I'm not an expert on this. If civil union and marriage are really that close to the same, I'd see that as already a big concession and be disappointed by that. If it were really up to me, I'd basically treat it as a form of 'co-tenancy' and leave it that. Call me old fashioned.

Some people who are homosexual are really excellent and admirable people--smart, kind-natured, reasonable, peaceful, professional, dedicated, etc. I have nothing against these people, or any decent people, and I'm not here to pass judgment on these people. They are free to pursue happiness like anyone else. What we're discussing is the legal definition (and privilege?) of marriage. But there's a difference between the people and the practice. I can't say that these people are good because they practice homosexuality, or that they wouldn't be good people if they didn't practice homosexuality.

Not true at the bolded if you had your way. "Free to pursue happiness unless that means marriage" is what you should have written.

I said earlier in the thread that I think homosexuality is ultimately mentally and physically unhealthy, without bringing spirituality into the discussion. I can only say this based on what I've observed with other people who do this long term. Some of them have real health problems. Many people who have this lifestyle do see it as a vice, an indulgence, or a bad habit, and if they're really being honest many will admit that it seems unnatural to them or that they're conflicted over it. I know someone who moved to San Francisco and tried that lifestyle out of curiosity. It can go downhill pretty quickly. Maybe San Francisco is different from other places, but I won't get into all that goes on here. Even the public parades have people dancing around naked, dresslng in drag, like clowns or like animals, smacking each other or hitting each other with whips. To me, these particular people (who don't represent all gays, I assume) are knowingly making a mockery of themselves, lashing out with spite towards themselves and each other, shoving their gear in each other's face, and basically lowering the boundaries of what would be considered acceptable public behavior.

If this thing happened openly in Salt Lake City, I honestly don't know what would happen. I assume many of these people would get arrested and they even be fortunate if some onlookers didn't physically attack them.

This is the biggest wow moment I've might have had on this board. You equate a very stereotypical assumption of how a select bunch of people live and lump it as basically "the homosexual lifestyle." Let me ask you this, if others stereotyped all monogamous, heterosexual couples as mentally and physically unhealthy because they're all swingers, wouldn't you be a little put out by that? You just basically typed that you think the majority of gay people hate themselves and question their very existence. You really think that homosexuals would be down on themselves because of an inner struggle like that than what people like you think of them?

Maybe this is the extreme, but where do you draw the line? If hypothetically you're sitting in the state legislature what are you supposed to do--make a statement that this lifestyle comprises is a legitimate form of marriage? Obviously, some value judgment has to be made. Some say yes. Some say no. I guess that's why it goes to a vote.

If you think this makes me an arrogant *******, that's fine. It's your call. I can respect you, even if I don't respect everything you believe or do.

Draw the line? How about clearly stating that homosexual marriage does NOT equate to humping another dude in public while wearing spandex? That'd probably be a good start. Just like heterosexual marriage doesn't mean you share spouse every month at parties.
 
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