What's JazzFanz's stance on Marriage Equality?

[Xsy]

I do not believe they are a joke. I just believe they are not for everyone. For some people they are important and fit that persons moral code, personality and lifestyle. I applaud them and have no problem with them living that way.

Basically you do not believe in it and are therefore calling it a joke. To some people gay pride is a joke. Those people are just as wrong as you are in in this stance. Almost nothing is all encompassing. That does not make something less because of that. Gay pride, gender roles, christian morals, athism...they are all important.

I think we've got a different definition of 'believing in gender roles' here.

So here's my take on gender roles, and what it means to 'believe' in those roles.

Gender Roles:
If you're a girl, you HAVE to cook, clean, support your man with love, and stay at home all day with your kids. Because you're a woman, and that's what you have to do.

If you're a guy, you HAVE to work, provide, clean the gutters, and earn enough money to send your kids to college. Because you're a man, and that's what you have to do.

Now don't get me wrong-- more often than not, people are going to follow those traditional gender roles. To naturally fall into your gender role is one thing-- that's fine! Lots of people love the whole 'traditional' thing-- its traditional for a reason! It's the most common! But just because it's the most common doesn't mean it's the 'only' way. Not everyone falls into those gender, roles! And that's fine!

Believing in gender roles:
When I hear someone say they 'believe' in gender roles, I think that they ENFORCE those stereotypes. Accepting or supporting those roles isn't bad! Enforcing them is! I think "ENFORCE" when I hear someone say they 'believe in gender roles'.



Does that clear up my stance? I feel like we believe the same thing but are wording it differently.

 

[Xsy]

Ugh.

Honestly, at this point, this topic is so convoluted over things like gender roles, God, buttsex cancer, parent roles, religion, HIV, sin, tradition, and history that I have no idea what we're even arguing anymore.

I think we're all replying to different bits of the conversation, and as the topic goes on, we've got 3 people who think they're debating the same thing but they aren't at all. Like right now, I was talking about gender roles outside of marriage or parenthood, but someone else mentioned marriage, and someone else mentioned parenthood.

Honestly, this is a really, really tough and passionate subject for so many people on such a wide spectrum, and its gotten so crazy that I'm attacking people on the same side as me, and offending people who I don't want to offend-- even people on the other side of the debate. I don't want to be known as 'that stuck up gay poster who always thinks he's right'. That's not a role I want on these boards. I'm really a chill guy!

I just think this topic has maybe gotten past the point of no return.

What do you say, guys? Let it die? Get a mod to lock it, maybe?

 

[UGLI baby]

Ugh.

Honestly, at this point, this topic is so convoluted over things like gender roles, God, buttsex cancer, parent roles, religion, HIV, sin, tradition, and history that I have no idea what we're even arguing anymore.

I think we're all replying to different bits of the conversation, and as the topic goes on, we've got 3 people who think they're debating the same thing but they aren't at all. Like right now, I was talking about gender roles outside of marriage or parenthood, but someone else mentioned marriage, and someone else mentioned parenthood.

Honestly, this is a really, really tough and passionate subject for so many people on such a wide spectrum, and its gotten so crazy that I'm attacking people on the same side as me, and offending people who I don't want to offend-- even people on the other side of the debate. I don't want to be known as 'that stuck up gay poster who always thinks he's right'. That's not a role I want on these boards. I'm really a chill guy!

I just think this topic has maybe gotten past the point of no return.

What do you say, guys? Let it die? Get a mod to lock it, maybe?

Hence, the first reply of this whole thread...

Dude. Noooo. Why would you do this???

 

[margodydek]

Ugh.

Honestly, at this point, this topic is so convoluted over things like gender roles, God, buttsex cancer, parent roles, religion, HIV, sin, tradition, and history that I have no idea what we're even arguing anymore.

I think we're all replying to different bits of the conversation, and as the topic goes on, we've got 3 people who think they're debating the same thing but they aren't at all. Like right now, I was talking about gender roles outside of marriage or parenthood, but someone else mentioned marriage, and someone else mentioned parenthood.

Honestly, this is a really, really tough and passionate subject for so many people on such a wide spectrum, and its gotten so crazy that I'm attacking people on the same side as me, and offending people who I don't want to offend-- even people on the other side of the debate. I don't want to be known as 'that stuck up gay poster who always thinks he's right'. That's not a role I want on these boards. I'm really a chill guy!

I just think this topic has maybe gotten past the point of no return.

What do you say, guys? Let it die? Get a mod to lock it, maybe?

This is a really hard thing to discuss in print. I was mocked earlier for stating that I couldn't effectively express myself here without sounding insensitive/misogynistic. I'm sure if most of us got into a room and verbally expressed how we feel, things would be a lot different. Xsy, I really respect you starting this thread and expressing how things look from your POV. Hope you know I got nothing but love for you and I do truly wish we could all get a long and be happy. God speed. I'm out (again)

 

[CONAN]

I just think there's something dads bring to the table that moms can't when it comes to parenting. And moms bring stuff to the table that dads can't. Not always and roles can be reversed but generally speaking. I think it's just meant to be. Now there is a religious backing behind that but also common sense. I gotta think if gays were meant to be parents together they would have the proper equipment to make kids just like heteros. To me that's a tough hurdle to clear for the pro crowd.

But then we go to dinner the other night with a lesbian couple that we are good friends with. Two great individuals that I can see as great mothers. But as parents together? No.

The bottomline is it's wrong to me (just like drinking or smoking dope or whatever) so I'm not going to support it.

Tough subject and I hate that it's one I have to face more and more.

 

[Xsy]

Hence, the first reply of this whole thread...

I'm kind of a masochist.

It was painfully fun for the first few pages. Got painfully awful after about page 10, though.

 

[DutchJazzer]

What do you say, guys? Let it die? Get a mod to lock it, maybe?

there are more important things wrong in the world that need to be put right. men not able to marry another man is jsut insignificant.

world hunger has more priority, world peace, finding cures for diseases.

 

[DutchJazzer]

I'm kind of a masochist.

It was painfully fun for the first few pages. Got painfully awful after about page 10, though.

wel i'm more of a sado

 

[Xsy]

Edit: Nevermind, this post was basically just fueling the fire.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

I think when the public at large no longer thinks of homosexuality as deviant and 'abnormal' behavior, they will invite the labeling of homosexual relationships as marriages. Simple as that. Until then, it's difficult to perceive it an injustice to call same-sex relations co-tenancy or civil union. What we've really been debating here is the legitimacy and value of homosexuality itself, I believe, whether people want to admit it or not.

 

[Stoked]

I think we've got a different definition of 'believing in gender roles' here.

So here's my take on gender roles, and what it means to 'believe' in those roles.

Gender Roles:
If you're a girl, you HAVE to cook, clean, support your man with love, and stay at home all day with your kids. Because you're a woman, and that's what you have to do.

If you're a guy, you HAVE to work, provide, clean the gutters, and earn enough money to send your kids to college. Because you're a man, and that's what you have to do.

Now don't get me wrong-- more often than not, people are going to follow those traditional gender roles. To naturally fall into your gender role is one thing-- that's fine! Lots of people love the whole 'traditional' thing-- its traditional for a reason! It's the most common! But just because it's the most common doesn't mean it's the 'only' way. Not everyone falls into those gender, roles! And that's fine!

Believing in gender roles:
When I hear someone say they 'believe' in gender roles, I think that they ENFORCE those stereotypes. Accepting or supporting those roles isn't bad! Enforcing them is! I think "ENFORCE" when I hear someone say they 'believe in gender roles'.



Does that clear up my stance? I feel like we believe the same thing but are wording it differently.

That right there is the difference. Why do they have to be enforced? Why not just accept them and support them where the willingly happen?

Also I strongly disagree of the notion that "supporting your man with love" is any part of a gender role. If they don't then they should not be with that man. Same of man supporting their woman. Same with same sex partnerships.

 

[One Brow]

I just think there's something dads bring to the table that moms can't when it comes to parenting. And moms bring stuff to the table that dads can't. Not always and roles can be reversed but generally speaking. I think it's just meant to be.

I agree up until the last sentence. It's not meant to be, it's trained into us from a young age and continually reinforced by a culture steeped in adn dependent upon people taking these roles. Moms and dads, when they were girls and boys, were taught to shut off or ignore aspects of themselves, and later can't bring to their children what they have never had for themselves.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

Interesting post on wikipedia as to the status of same-sex marriage....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_the_United_States

 

[Scat]

I would support that-- but what's the point of having two identical things with separate names? There's no point in being THAT picky about a word. A WORD.

I would like to point out that the pro-gay marriage crowd are making just as big a stink about the word marriage. They won't accept having just civil unions. They want the word marriage to apply to them as well. Seems like it is a pretty damn important word.

 

[Xsy]

I would like to point out that the pro-gay marriage crowd are making just as big a stink about the word marriage. They won't accept having just civil unions. They want the word marriage to apply to them as well. Seems like it is a pretty damn important word.

If Marriage and Civil Unions were equal in every aspect except in name, what would the point be to call it two different things?

 

[CONAN]

I agree up until the last sentence. It's not meant to be, it's trained into us from a young age and continually reinforced by a culture steeped in adn dependent upon people taking these roles. Moms and dads, when they were girls and boys, were taught to shut off or ignore aspects of themselves, and later can't bring to their children what they have never had for themselves.

Well, it certainly can become a chicken and egg argument. Did those roles come naturally or were they brow-beaten into kids as they grew up and it became a vicious gender-biased cycle? I prefer the optimistic route.

 

[DutchJazzer]

Well, it certainly can become a chicken and egg argument. Did those roles come naturally or were they brow-beaten into kids as they grew up and it became a vicious gender-biased cycle? I prefer the optimistic route.

or how do you explain cultures who never had contact with the outside world. exhibiting the same gender roles.

eg some tribe in brazil who never ever had contact withthtoutside world, forgot the tribes name.
but yeah same basic gender role.
eg women stay home take care of children do dishes etc.
while men hunt and gather.


it's been like this with almost all cultures

 

[One Brow]

or how do you explain cultures who never had contact with the outside world. exhibiting the same gender roles
...
it's been like this with almost all cultures

There hae been cultures that were cut off for a long period of time, but none of them were always cut off.

I have no problem with the notion that under primitive conditions, our biological sexual dimorphism led to specific cultural roles. However, even in those tribes, the roles are programmed by the needs of the culture much more than they are inherent.

 

[CONAN]

My opinion is that it's a little of both. And that's a good thing. Experience and knowledge can be passed down and the generation behind you can be better. And this can be done while respecting gender and roles.

I think ideally mom stays home with the kids (especially when they are younger duh). That is best-case scenario. But it doesn't always work out that way and you do the best you can. We've gone through years where the wife has stayed home, years where I stayed home, and years where neither stayed home. The world is too crazy to keep that structure static.

 

[Scat]

If Marriage and Civil Unions were equal in every aspect except in name, what would the point be to call it two different things?

IMO it would help gays be more accepted if they would just let the word marriage apply only to only heterosexual couples. As it is, many people feel like they are being forced to do something they are very much against i.e. accepting gay marriage.

Why are gays so against simply having a civil union? By the way, that's a rhetorical question. I know the answer.