foye's history at PG

[NAOS]

Foye is not going to play the point for us. The only question is when the Earl/Foye/Burks trifecta fails, and what Ty does. The only realistic solution is Marvin has to come off the bench which calls into question KOC's acquisitions. I'll be very curious to see what Ty does with are wing formation.

There isn't a single stat out there that will back up the claim that Foye is a good point guard or backup point guard. None. No cherry picking since ALL the stats say he sucks as a point guard.

How's Gary Neal doing at "PG"?
While you're at it, can you define "PG"?
Thanks.

 

[Stifle Tower]

How's Gary Neal doing at "PG"?
While you're at it, can you define "PG"?
Thanks.

True PG = John Stockton
False Gods = Everyone else, including Magic Johnson.

 

[cctrackstar]

For my part when I say I hope Foye will be playing PG, I'm simply saying I think he'll contribute more to the team if he's taking minutes from Watson than if he's taking them from Burks.

Most rational statement made to this point. Our SG spot is very solid with Hayward and Burks whereas our point guard is iffy at best with Mo being more of a combo guard. Foye is a combo guard also.......

Are the Jazz going to switch over to the triangle offence? Makes you wonder with the players they have right now, and it's not like they are stuck with bad contracts either (Harris), they chose these players - this offseason - specifically. In a sense I think we better hope that Hayward Burks and now Marvin can pass the ball and help run the offence because not a single Jazz point guard short of Tinsley has more than average passing ability.

 

[candrew]

Foye will be added to the list that is Milt Palacio, Devin Brown, Derek Fisher and Josh Howard of one-year veteran players reviled by most Jazz fans.

 

[gregbroncs]

Most rational statement made to this point. Our SG spot is very solid with Hayward and Burks whereas our point guard is iffy at best with Mo being more of a combo guard. Foye is a combo guard also.......

Are the Jazz going to switch over to the triangle offence? Makes you wonder with the players they have right now, and it's not like they are stuck with bad contracts either (Harris), they chose these players - this offseason - specifically. In a sense I think we better hope that Hayward Burks and now Marvin can pass the ball and help run the offence because not a single Jazz point guard short of Tinsley has more than average passing ability.

Well at least this year our PG's (Mo and Foye) have 1 guard skill (shooting). Last year we had 3 PG's that have been well below average shooter's most of their careers. And none of them were more than below average passing PG's either. At least now our PG's can shoot.

And yes I believe Foye is going to play PG. Maybe not exclusively but quite a bit. If he does not then it means that the Jazz coaches do not believe Burks to be close to ready for rotation minutes.

 

[Stifle Tower]

Most rational statement made to this point. Our SG spot is very solid with Hayward and Burks whereas our point guard is iffy at best with Mo being more of a combo guard. Foye is a combo guard also.......

Are the Jazz going to switch over to the triangle offence? Makes you wonder with the players they have right now, and it's not like they are stuck with bad contracts either (Harris), they chose these players - this offseason - specifically. In a sense I think we better hope that Hayward Burks and now Marvin can pass the ball and help run the offence because not a single Jazz point guard short of Tinsley has more than average passing ability.

We saw a bit of that in SL. We all thought Burks was going to see time at PG, but what we saw instead was a PG paired with Alec and Burks initiating the plays from the 2-guard position. The PG's can bring the ball up the court and, if the initial offense isn't there, pass off to Hayward or Burks for dribble penetration. I'd like to see Mo/Hayward and Foye/Burks paired together. That way you have a couple of great outside shooters available for a kick-out if the penetrator is shut off and can't get the ball inside.

 

[gregbroncs]

We saw a bit of that in SL. We all thought Burks was going to see time at PG, but what we saw instead was a PG paired with Alec and Burks initiating the plays from the 2-guard position. The PG's can bring the ball up the court and, if the initial offense isn't there, pass off to Hayward or Burks for dribble penetration. I'd like to see Mo/Hayward and Foye/Burks paired together. That way you have a couple of great outside shooters available for a kick-out if the penetrator is shut off and can't get the ball inside.

This is how I see it as well and hope this is what they are thinking. This being the case makes this is Foye a PG argument irrelevant. If he is a PG on defense and a SG on offense what does it matter what position he is technically playing?

 

[NAOS]

This is how I see it as well and hope this is what they are thinking. This being the case makes this is Foye a PG argument irrelevant. If he is a PG on defense and a SG on offense what does it matter what position he is technically playing?

There is a sizeable contingent of posters who refuse to ask this question.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

Well at least this year our PG's (Mo and Foye) have 1 guard skill (shooting). Last year we had 3 PG's that have been well below average shooter's most of their careers. And none of them were more than below average passing PG's either. At least now our PG's can shoot.

And yes I believe Foye is going to play PG. Maybe not exclusively but quite a bit. If he does not then it means that the Jazz coaches do not believe Burks to be close to ready for rotation minutes.

https://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/sort/assistRatio

Earl Watson passes the ball more than ANYONE in the league last year. You don't have the best assist ratio being a "below average" passer. Better assist ratio than Nash, Calderon, and Rondo. Tinsley was 7th in assist ratio. Harris was 25th (22nd among PGs), and where was Foye? 135th. If you take Foye's BEST ever assist rate he's ever had for a season, he would have ended 70th last year.

Not too concerned about the plus minus debate, but WANTING Foye to be backup PG because he only gives up two points per game is the stupidest argument you can make because Watson was -3, FOR THE WHOLE SEASON. He does what you want in a backup PG, not lose ground.

But shooting 40% from the arc makes you a good point guard on this forum, I guess.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

This is how I see it as well and hope this is what they are thinking. This being the case makes this is Foye a PG argument irrelevant. If he is a PG on defense and a SG on offense what does it matter what position he is technically playing?

Burks as the offensive PG suggests to be even worse than Foye.

 

[Stifle Tower]

https://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/sort/assistRatio

Earl Watson passes the ball more than ANYONE in the league last year. You don't have the best assist ratio being a "below average" passer. Better assist ratio than Nash, Calderon, and Rondo. Tinsley was 7th in assist ratio. Harris was 25th (22nd among PGs), and where was Foye? 135th. If you take Foye's BEST ever assist rate he's ever had for a season, he would have ended 70th last year.

Not too concerned about the plus minus debate, but WANTING Foye to be backup PG because he only gives up two points per game is the stupidest argument you can make because Watson was -3, FOR THE WHOLE SEASON. He does what you want in a backup PG, not lose ground.

But shooting 40% from the arc makes you a good point guard on this forum, I guess.

No, shooting 40% from the arc makes you a good candidate to bring the ball up the court, pass off to playmakers like Hayward or Burks (or throw it inside to Jefferson) and stay behind the arc if/when the ball gets kicked out.

C'mon, think outside that small little box. Lakers had Derek freakin' Fisher as the "PG" on their championship teams. He had a career average of THREE assists/game. Chalmers had 4 APG last season with Miami. Last I recall, there's no rule in the NBA that says your "PG" HAS to be the primary ballhandler and the offense must run through him on every play.

Jazz has two young creators in Burks and Hayward. Neither is a PG. So what does Utah do - force them to change their games while KOC (or Lindsey) tries to find a PG to fit the old model of the Jazz? Hey, I have an idea. Why not bring in some decent outside shooters with the ability to bring the ball up the court, and then give free rein to Hayward and Burks to create some offense?

 

[Darkwing Duck]

No, shooting 40% from the arc makes you a good candidate to bring the ball up the court, pass off to playmakers like Hayward or Burks (or throw it inside to Jefferson) and stay behind the arc if/when the ball gets kicked out.

C'mon, think outside that small little box. Lakers had Derek freakin' Fisher as the "PG" on their championship teams. He had a career average of THREE assists/game. Chalmers had 4 APG last season with Miami. Last I recall, there's no rule in the NBA that says your "PG" HAS to be the primary ballhandler and the offense must run through him on every play.

Jazz has two young creators in Burks and Hayward. Neither is a PG. So what does Utah do - force them to change their games while KOC (or Lindsey) tries to find a PG to fit the old model of the Jazz? Hey, I have an idea. Why not bring in some decent outside shooters with the ability to bring the ball up the court, and then give free rein to Hayward and Burks to create some offense?

So the Jazz' wings are equivalent to the wings the Lakers and Heat had. Gotcha.

And just took a quick look, Bryant has a much better assist rate than Hayward or Burks. By a LOT.

And Fisher's career assist rate is still better than Hayward's last year.

 

[theNBAnerd]

So the Jazz' wings are equivalent to the wings the Lakers and Heat had. Gotcha.

And just took a quick look, Bryant has a much better assist rate than Hayward or Burks. By a LOT.

And Fisher's career assist rate is still better than Hayward's last year.

there you go. that's exactly why i'm worried about PG on this team. we just don't have a lot of guys who are great at creating. which is why i think we should address the backup point and let foye be a shooter, which is his specialty anyway.

 

[gregbroncs]

https://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/sort/assistRatio

Earl Watson passes the ball more than ANYONE in the league last year. You don't have the best assist ratio being a "below average" passer. Better assist ratio than Nash, Calderon, and Rondo. Tinsley was 7th in assist ratio. Harris was 25th (22nd among PGs), and where was Foye? 135th. If you take Foye's BEST ever assist rate he's ever had for a season, he would have ended 70th last year.

Not too concerned about the plus minus debate, but WANTING Foye to be backup PG because he only gives up two points per game is the stupidest argument you can make because Watson was -3, FOR THE WHOLE SEASON. He does what you want in a backup PG, not lose ground.

But shooting 40% from the arc makes you a good point guard on this forum, I guess.

The post basically ignored the whole point of the post you quoted. I don't think our PG's are going to be treated as traditional PG's.

Burks as the offensive PG only suggests to be worse because he was a rookie playing without camp on a roster with no shooters. Can Burks do it? Maybe. Can Hayward? Probably. Can Watson be a starting PG or even a backup on a contending team? highly doubtfull. His passing does not make up for his complete lack of anything resembling a shot. I think half the players in the league could shoot better than Watson with their eyes closed. Tinsley is far more likely to be a decent PG for this team than Watson. I don't mind him as the 2nd sting PG instead of Foye. But I'd much rather Foye and Burks get minutes over Tinsley as they are better players overall.

1 thing is for sure. The FO has given Ty a lot of players to deal with at every position. This is looking like a make or break year for him IMO. I hope he has success and this team shines under Corbin. Mostly because I hate to waste another year of Favors, Hayward and Burks' time in the league watching his rotations be far worse than 95% of the real coaches in the league.

 

[gregbroncs]

So the Jazz' wings are equivalent to the wings the Lakers and Heat had. Gotcha.

And just took a quick look, Bryant has a much better assist rate than Hayward or Burks. By a LOT.

And Fisher's career assist rate is still better than Hayward's last year.

So we are now comparing the rookie season and the 2nd season of our 2 young players to the career of a 1st ballot hall of famer? Seems like just another bunch of stat cherry picking to me. All while doing so with one of the worst outside shooting teams in the league. Much easier to get assists when the other guys on the team can shoot.

Also why do our wings need to be as good? There are other ways to build a team than just those 2 teams.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

The post basically ignored the whole point of the post you quoted. I don't think our PG's are going to be treated as traditional PG's.

Burks as the offensive PG only suggests to be worse because he was a rookie playing without camp on a roster with no shooters. Can Burks do it? Maybe. Can Hayward? Probably. Can Watson be a starting PG or even a backup on a contending team? highly doubtfull. His passing does not make up for his complete lack of anything resembling a shot. I think half the players in the league could shoot better than Watson with their eyes closed. Tinsley is far more likely to be a decent PG for this team than Watson. I don't mind him as the 2nd sting PG instead of Foye. But I'd much rather Foye and Burks get minutes over Tinsley as they are better players overall.

1 thing is for sure. The FO has given Ty a lot of players to deal with at every position. This is looking like a make or break year for him IMO. I hope he has success and this team shines under Corbin. Mostly because I hate to waste another year of Favors, Hayward and Burks' time in the league watching his rotations be far worse than 95% of the real coaches in the league.

So you'd rather have Tinsley on the court than Watson, when the stats clearly show the Jazz were better when Watson was on the court and not Tinsley? The stats suggest that his passing (and defense) DOES in fact make up for his lack of a shot.

And no "traditional" PG means you have another player that can pass the ball that isn't the PG. Burks is not that. Hayward might be, but his assist rate last year was worse than Derek Fisher's career average. And Burks isn't a playmaker. The ball stays in his hands when near scoring position. Maybe that'll change somewhat in his second year, but as a rookie, he had a sub ten percent assist rate. Millsap and Jefferson had higher assist rates than he did last year.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

So we are now comparing the rookie season and the 2nd season of our 2 young players to the career of a 1st ballot hall of famer? Seems like just another bunch of stat cherry picking to me. All while doing so with one of the worst outside shooting teams in the league. Much easier to get assists when the other guys on the team can shoot.

Also why do our wings need to be as good? There are other ways to build a team than just those 2 teams.

And yet Watson and Tinsley had great assist rates for this bad shooting team, and Harris was average to below average.

 

[gregbroncs]

So you'd rather have Tinsley on the court than Watson, when the stats clearly show the Jazz were better when Watson was on the court and not Tinsley? The stats suggest that his passing (and defense) DOES in fact make up for his lack of a shot.

And no "traditional" PG means you have another player that can pass the ball that isn't the PG. Burks is not that. Hayward might be, but his assist rate last year was worse than Derek Fisher's career average. And Burks isn't a playmaker. The ball stays in his hands when near scoring position. Maybe that'll change somewhat in his second year, but as a rookie, he had a sub ten percent assist rate. Millsap and Jefferson had higher assist rates than he did last year.

Yes I'd rather have Tinsley on the court than Watson. And i'd prefer if neither of them played more than scrub minutes behind: Mo, Foye, and Burks.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

Yes I'd rather have Tinsley on the court than Watson. And i'd prefer if neither of them played more than scrub minutes behind: Mo, Foye, and Burks.

So if you were coach, you'd choose to play the players that made the team worse? Gotcha.

 

[theNBAnerd]

So we are now comparing the rookie season and the 2nd season of our 2 young players to the career of a 1st ballot hall of famer? Seems like just another bunch of stat cherry picking to me. All while doing so with one of the worst outside shooting teams in the league. Much easier to get assists when the other guys on the team can shoot.

Also why do our wings need to be as good? There are other ways to build a team than just those 2 teams.

if you'd feel more comfortable with the comparison if we didn't look at his whole career, kobe has actually only had ONE season where his assist rate was worse than gordon's last season -- and it was his rookie season.

but i'm kinda just messing with you, because i actually AGREE with you that hayward is our best creator. the difference is, that fact worries me. if we really go into the season expecting gordon to facilitate the entire offense (or hayward and burks, or hayward and watson and burks, or whatever), we're going to have a rough time