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Should Mitt release his tax returns?

SaltyDawg said:
And on the same train of thought... If there are no hoops to jump through, paperwork to fill out, no need to create a problem where one doesn't exist.
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So your solution is just to leave it broken? Awesome
 
Stoked said:
Do your solution is just to leave it broken. Awesome
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What exactly is broken? Well we know what is broken now- millions of legal Americans will be disenfranchised. But what exactly was broken before we started passing laws that make it tougher to vote?
 
SaltyDawg said:
What exactly is broken?
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Voting. People Ineligible do vote and you know it. For two elections they could have swung look at the 2000 presidential race and the Al Franken senate race. Not to mention various local elections were turnout is low.

Now I'm not saying it should be the top of the list as a serious problem but it is some thing that should be fixed. Unite the BS polical grandstanding and motivations of each side. Ensuring those who vote are eligible to vote is a good idea and these laws should have been passed decades ago.
 
Stoked said:
Voting. People Ineligible do vote and you know it. For two elections they could have swung look at the 2000 presidential race and the Al Franken senate race. Not to mention various local elections were turnout is low.

Now I'm not saying it should be the top of the list as a serious problem but it is some thing that should be fixed. Unite the BS polical grandstanding and motivations of each side. Ensuring those who vote are eligible to vote is a good idea and these laws should have been passed decades ago.
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Do you have a source showing that illegal people voting has been a problem? As far as I know it has not been a problem, and this voter id thing is more of a pre-emptive strike.

I know there have been many scare tactic reports saying so many illegals are registered to vote, but add Florida found out when they started purging them, many of them are actually legal Americans and it was a "clerical error" (as scat put it) that listed them incorrectly as illegal in another database.

I'm fine with making people prove who they are in order to vote. I'm just not okay with limiting the only acceptable proof to a state id card that is difficult to get for a lot of people.
 
SaltyDawg said:
Do you have a source showing that illegal people voting has been a problem? As far as I know it has not been a problem, and this voter id thing is more of a pre-emptive strike.

I know there have been many scare tactic reports saying so many illegals are registered to vote, but add Florida found out when they started purging them, many of them are actually legal Americans and it was a "clerical error" (as scat put it) that listed them incorrectly as illegal in another database.
I'm fine with making people prove who they are in order to vote. I'm just not okay with limiting the only acceptable proof to a state id card that is difficult to get for a lot of people.
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You continue to ignore the part where allowances are made for those that cannot afford the cost, don't have a birth certificate...

So basically you support voter if laws but you want acceptable I'd to be more than a state I'd. I'd think passports, military I'd cards, state drivers licenses would be acceptable as well that do it for you?
 
Stoked said:
You continue to ignore the part where allowances are made for those that cannot afford the cost, don't have a birth certificate...

So basically you support voter if laws but you want acceptable I'd to be more than a state I'd. I'd think passports, military I'd cards, state drivers licenses would be acceptable as well that do it for you?
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You're speaking hypothetically, I'm talking about the actual reality. We have voter id laws in place right now where no reasonable exceptions are made, and millions of otherwise legal Americans will not be allowed to vote.

Kind of ironic that the party who is supposedly against big government would be pushing so hard for extra government red tape in order to fix a problem that doesn't even exist.
 
SaltyDawg said:
You're speaking hypothetically, I'm talking about the actual reality. We have voter id laws in place right now where no reasonable exceptions are made, and millions of otherwise legal Americans will not be allowed to vote.

Kind of ironic that the party who is supposedly against big government would be pushing so hard for extra government red tape in order to fix a problem that doesn't even exist.
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There is a difference in saying no unnecessary government and saying no government at all. I am of the opinion that one should have certain verifiable qualifiers to be able to vote. That's not a partisan issue for me .. it's an American one.
 
PKM said:
There is a difference in saying no unnecessary government and saying no government at all. I am of the opinion that one should have certain verifiable qualifiers to be able to vote. That's not a partisan issue for me .. it's an American one.
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It IS a partisan issue, lol. It's republicans pushing for these laws, republicans passing them, republicans signing them into law, republicans supporting them on message boards (like yourself on this board), and democrats fighting against it at every step. How is that not partisan?

I agree that it SHOULD be an American issue. The constitutional rights should not have stipulations, conditions, and red tape added to them. But it is a partisan issue right now.
 
SaltyDawg said:
It IS a partisan issue, lol. It's republicans pushing for these laws, republicans passing them, republicans signing them into law, republicans supporting them on message boards (like yourself on this board), and democrats fighting against it at every step. How is that not partisan?

I agree that it SHOULD be an American issue. The constitutional rights should not have stipulations and red tape added to them. But it is a partisan issue right now.
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You missed where I said it's not a partisan issue for ME. No party has a strangle-hold on my vote. I have the ability to form my opinion, issue by issue, regardless who is getting the credit or the blame. I was simply jumping into the debate to say that I would like to know there is some integrity in the voting process. Whether that be no duplicate voting, assuring one is an American citizen, etc.
 
SaltyDawg said:
You're speaking hypothetically, I'm talking about the actual reality. We have voter id laws in place right now where no reasonable exceptions are made, and millions of otherwise legal Americans will not be allowed to vote.

Kind of ironic that the party who is supposedly against big government would be pushing so hard for extra government red tape in order to fix a problem that doesn't even exist.
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Then pay attention to what people are really saying. Didn't I say the laws were broken? Didn't I say that allowance and exceptions should be made in the rules to obtain ID in the examples you provided?

You want to debate with me based on something I am not saying. Kind of defeats the purpose of debating.
 
SaltyDawg said:
It IS a partisan issue, lol. It's republicans pushing for these laws, republicans passing them, republicans signing them into law, republicans supporting them on message boards (like yourself on this board), and democrats fighting against it at every step. How is that not partisan?
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According to a Washington Post poll from last month, 74% of Americans believe an "official, government-issued photo identification" should be required to vote.
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/katie...ns_beleve_voter_id_should_be_required_to_vote

Doesn't seem all that partisan to me. In fact, if the democrats really are "fighting against it at every step", it seems like they are woefully out of touch with what the country wants.

I find it a bit ironic that you used the "a majority of Americans want Romney to divulge more tax info" argument earlier in this thread, yet now in this thread you (very likely) don't care that an *even greater* majority of Americans want voter ID.
 
Interesting:

https://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/opinion/54703943-82/romney-tax-marriott-bain.html.csp

On his recent trip abroad, Romney skipped Italy, for good reasons. Bain Capital, with Romney as CEO, made about $1 billion in a leveraged (minimal cash outlay – low-risk) buyout of an Italian company. Bloomberg News reported that Bain funneled its profits through subsidiaries in Luxembourg, a common corporate way to avoid taxes in other European countries. The buyer, Italy’s biggest telephone company, now is valued way below what it paid Bain and other investors for the business. The shock waves of this transaction are still felt in Italy.

Presidential candidates generally avoid betting the U.S. dollar will lose value by speculating in Swiss francs. Yet such speculation was the stated purpose of Romney’s "blind" trust Swiss bank account, which was closed in early 2010. Was the income reported on earlier tax returns? Did Romney timely file disclosure forms to the Treasury Department?

Romney’s large accounts held in "family trusts" raise the question whether gift taxes were paid and required disclosures were made.

Romney’s apparent disdain for tax obligations is clear from his role in Marriott International’s abusive tax shelter activities. From 1993 to 1998, Romney was head of the audit committee of the Marriott board of directors, with responsibilities that included tax planning. The so-called "Son of Boss" tax shelter helped Marriott sell $81 million of mortgage notes, reporting a $71 million "tax loss." Romney was an insider with perspective on the motivation and lack of substance in the transaction, fully understanding the tax avoidance game. Romney reportedly was the board member most familiar with the transaction.
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Stoked said:
Then pay attention to what people are really saying. Didn't I say the laws were broken? Didn't I say that allowance and exceptions should be made in the rules to obtain ID in the examples you provided?

You want to debate with me based on something I am not saying. Kind of defeats the purpose of debating.
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How are we debating? I said the voter id laws currently in effect are crap (not in those exact words), and apparently you agree with me.

If you're talking about how we could theoretically make them less crappy, or even good, that is another discussion that I haven't been involved with in this thread. I was merely stating that what we have right now is a bunch of bs.

Yes, I agree with you that it is probably possible to someday come up with a decent voter id law (and hope that it stays decent over the years, which is unlikely). But what we currently have is crap, will likely prevent millions of legal Americans from voting in the upcoming presidential election, and will likely not be "fixed" (may be struck down though) before this upcoming election.
 
colton said:
According to a Washington Post poll from last month, 74% of Americans believe an "official, government-issued photo identification" should be required to vote.
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/katie...ns_beleve_voter_id_should_be_required_to_vote

Doesn't seem all that partisan to me. In fact, if the democrats really are "fighting against it at every step", it seems like they are woefully out of touch with what the country wants.

I find it a bit ironic that you used the "a majority of Americans want Romney to divulge more tax info" argument earlier in this thread, yet now in this thread you (very likely) don't care that an *even greater* majority of Americans want voter ID.
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Rights are not something that should be put to a vote. Where would we be as a society if we left civil rights up to a majority vote (or majority opinion)?

This is not even close to the same thing as properly vetting a presidential candidate in the same manner that every other candidate has been vetted. Like Reagan said, trust, but verify.

I saw that the Obama campaign offered an olive branch on this issue, promising to not ask for anymore tax info if Romney just releases his tax returns from the years he was running for president. Romney declined.

Funny that Romney asked for many years of tax returns from all of the vp candidates that he was vetting, but he won't release his own to the American people who are vetting him.
 
SaltyDawg said:
Rights are not something that should be put to a vote. Where would we be as a society if we left civil rights up to a majority vote (or majority opinion)?
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Yeah, we might as well just leave it up to the president through executive orders, that way it'll always be ensured that our rights are protected.
Or better yet.... we could just leave our rights up to congress.
The Patriot Act and the NDAA are perfect examples of how our government loves us oh so.
 
TheSilencer1313 said:
Yeah, we might as well just leave it up to the president through executive orders, that way it'll always be ensured that our rights are protected.
Or better yet.... we could just leave our rights up to congress.
The Patriot Act and the NDAA are perfect examples of how our government loves us oh so.
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The patriot act was terrible, no argument from me. And it has basically destroyed most of what made us different from the rest of the world.

Now it's totally legal to have warrantless wiretapping, warrantless cell phone tracking, and as soon as the carriers switch to voice over LTE (next year) it will probably be legal to get historic call recordings without a warrant. These would have been paranoid, crazy, conspiracy theorist, delusional concepts 15 years ago. Now, thanks to the patriot act, it's our new "police state" reality.

Having said that, it's still bat **** crazy to let the majority opinion determine what rights a minority get.
 
SaltyDawg said:
Having said that, it's still bat **** crazy to let the majority opinion determine what rights a minority get.
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That is a crazy characterization of this issue. No one is arguing rights for or against a minority. I think both sides are pretty much in agreement that all citizens have the right to vote.
 
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