Utah's Pagan Community Grows

[NAOS]

I couldn't agree more that it's their right (or is it rite?) to worship/believe however they choose. However, as a believer in God myself, I find this trend worrisome. I see more and more people (especially women) getting into this stuff and what they're doing is insanely strange/bizarre. Yes, I know these are all just my opinions.

As a believer of something different, that doesn't mean that you MUST react to something with "worry," and identify things as "strange/bizarre." Why not "interested" and "curious," etc.? How do you think your beliefs have conditioned you to react that way? Do you think that points to a strength or a weakness in what you believe (in how it prepares you to interact with the world)?

 

[NAOS]

For me, when you react to difference by castigating it (in however small of a way) or even medicalizing it, then that points to more to YOUR OWN CAPACITY to affect and be affected. But, it's no news that Christianity is famous for creating in-groups and out-groups.

 

[Siro]

For me, when you react to difference by castigating it (in however small of a way) or even medicalizing it, then that points to more to YOUR OWN CAPACITY to affect and be affected. But, it's no news that Christianity is famous for creating in-groups and out-groups.

That simple? What if you find those differences morally disagreeable or even harmful?

 

[Stifle Tower]

I am not mormon, so I hope this doesn't ruffle feathers (not intended);

- women cannot hold any of the highest positions within the church
- women's access to 'heaven' is via their husband or father (rather than on their own)

I'll stop there. I have spoken to many LDS women (that are devout, btw) that claim to be over-worked and under-appreciated. They seem to need an outlet to be themselves and to find a way to be a stand alone human being.

Disclaimer: I know that MOST LDS women do not feel this way, I was only answering the question from the perspective of a non-mormon in Utah.

Sorry, that one is completely wrong.

 

[franklin]

I think it is weird but so is voodoo and bunch of other stuff. No doubt they think mormonism is weird.

Who wouldn't want to have the voodoo? Imagine a world where all ****ty drivers are tormented.

 

[leftyjace]

God actually holds women in higher regard than men.

That's cuz he's smart.

 

[NAOS]

That simple? What if you find those differences morally disagreeable or even harmful?

I wouldn't rush to that judgment quickly, and certainly not without on-site/person-to-person interaction. Obviously they couldn't espouse violence, but whatever alchemy and experimentation they wanted to do amongst consenting adults is pretty ok with me. I'd be curious first -- judgmental dead last.

 

[Dr. Jones]

As a believer of something different, that doesn't mean that you MUST react to something with "worry," and identify things as "strange/bizarre." Why not "interested" and "curious," etc.? How do you think your beliefs have conditioned you to react that way? Do you think that points to a strength or a weakness in what you believe (in how it prepares you to interact with the world)?

I said it plainly in a prior post. If I wasn't so convicted of my faith, I wouldn't worry for them. Not sure how that can't make sense to you.
I was clear that my beliefs HAVE shaped the way I view/interact with the world.

For that matter, do you think there is a single person on this board (or alive for that matter) that, if being honest, isn't the exact same? Might it be your belief system that leads you to believe I should NOT find these things worrisome? I'm not mad, btw, just find it curious when one group tells another group how they should be responsing, feeling, thinking..

 

[Dr. Jones]

Ditto Duck Rogers. I've never understood this to be the case. In my lifelong association with the church, I've always gotten the impression - from countless conference talks and firesides - that God actually holds women in higher regard than men.

Thanks for the input from a LDS member. Don't answer if it's too long/difficult, but what about the example I gave of the woman either going to be with her husband or father, once divorced? (If I'm treading, ignore me .. I'm not being anti.)

 

[NAOS]

I said it plainly in a prior post. If I wasn't so convicted of my faith, I wouldn't worry for them. Not sure how that can't make sense to you.
I was clear that my beliefs HAVE shaped the way I view/interact with the world.

For that matter, do you think there is a single person on this board (or alive for that matter) that, if being honest, isn't the exact same? Might it be your belief system that leads you to believe I should NOT find these things worrisome? I'm not mad, btw, just find it curious when one group tells another group how they should be responsing, feeling, thinking..

Let's clear this up first: do you have personal knowledge of this (or any) pagan community?

 

[leftyjace]

Before we get into "how can you feel curious versus worried" and the like, will everyone please watch this video???

https://www.hulu.com/watch/173530

It's called Flight from Death: The Quest for Immortality. Absolutely incredible documentary about how people cope with "death" - including the role religion plays, and also goes into why some people get so staunch and even violent about their religious beliefs. Fascinating stuff.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Let's clear this up first: do you have personal knowledge of this (or any) pagan community?

Yes. I have two women that work for me that are highly active and is the source of my information. I personally know 4 or 5 others.

Let's also clear this up: I am not condemning their activities.

 

[Stifle Tower]

I'm kind of disappointed in this thread. As a SF Giants fan, I thought it was going to be about Angel Pagan. When they traded for him, I thought "meh," but he's turned out to be the best lead-off hitter they've had in quite a while. Unfortunately, the Melk was tainted and Lincecum must be going through withdrawal. It's amusing, though, that their minor deals (Pence and Scutaro) are working out a lot better than the mega-deal the Dodgers made.

 

[Dr. Jones]

I'm kind of disappointed in this thread. As a SF Giants fan, I thought it was going to be about Angel Pagan. When they traded for him, I thought "meh," but he's turned out to be the best lead-off hitter they've had in quite a while. Unfortunately, the Melk was tainted and Lincecum must be going through withdrawal. It's amusing, though, that their minor deals (Pence and Scutaro) are working out a lot better than the mega-deal the Dodgers made.

Wow.

 

[NAOS]

Yes. I have two women that work for me that are highly active and is the source of my information. I personally know 4 or 5 others.

Let's also clear this up: I am not condemning their activities.

I know you aren't condemning their activities.

so, what have you learned from these two women that makes you worried about an entire community? Also, I'd suspect that you'd find massive differences between different groupings of pagans, so I don't think that even if you've been able to access a deep understanding of a particular community through these two women that these understandings would travel very well from community to community.

 

[Dr. Jones]

I know you aren't condemning their activities.

so, what have you learned from these two women that makes you worried about an entire community? Also, I'd suspect that you'd find massive differences between different groupings of pagans, so I don't think that even if you've been able to access a deep understanding of a particular community through these two women that these understandings would travel very well from community to community.

I may have said something I didn't intend. I didn't mean to sound concerned for a community or even a certain group (as I don't know much of anything about the larger constituency). Let's get off my worried comment (there's nothing more to be said or understood).

I will add this, however. I feel badly (truly) for these couple of ladies because they're as sweet as can be, but they admit openly to these activities in an effort to find love. To find acceptance, peace, positive energy. I feel badly because at one point (or more) in their lives, family and/or religion shunned them and made them feel alone. I feel badly that people can get so caught up in their religion/rituals that they abandon family/loved ones. These ladies are somewhat in survival mode .. it's just sad, more than anything, that they were outcasts within their own families.

 

[Siro]

I wouldn't rush to that judgment quickly, and certainly not without on-site/person-to-person interaction. Obviously they couldn't espouse violence, but whatever alchemy and experimentation they wanted to do amongst consenting adults is pretty ok with me. I'd be curious first -- judgmental dead last.

I think you're being too harsh on judgment. I completely disagree with the Christian concept to judge not lest ye be judged. I am perfectly fine with being judged. Self-judgment is a pretty ineffective for those seeking self-improvement. I'm almost a completely different person to the one I was 10 years ago, and that happened because my ideas were challenged by others. And I am thankful for it. I think we've become too sensitive to criticism, and opted for a more self-esteem-centric culture. I am not at all convinced that such paradigm can be counted as progress.

I agree that you need to try to understand first. But once that's accomplished, here comes the judgment! I think it is fair to say that judging a ritual as weird is within acceptable bounds of what we call tolerance. Tolerance means you accept something's existence even though you DON'T like it. It has nothing to do with forcing yourself not to disagree with anyone. Judgement gets a bad rep because of things like racism and sectarian violence. But judgment is also what gave us the modern world. Most of what have been accomplished was due to a culture of criticism. Even religion today is not what it used to be because of those who dared to challenge it.

These ideals of tolerance fetishism does nobody any good in the long run. Judgment must be exercised rationally, calmly, and moderately.

 

[Dr. Jones]

I think you're being too harsh on judgment. I completely disagree with the Christian concept to judge not lest ye be judged. I am perfectly fine with being judged. Self-judgment is a pretty ineffective for those seeking self-improvement. I'm almost a completely different person to the one I was 10 years ago, and that happened because my ideas were challenged by others. And I am thankful for it. I think we've become too sensitive to criticism, and opted for a more self-esteem-centric culture. I am not at all convinced that such paradigm can be counted as progress.

I agree that you need to try to understand first. But once that's accomplished, here comes the judgment! I think it is fair to say that judging a ritual as weird is within acceptable bounds of what we call tolerance. Tolerance means you accept something's existence even though you DON'T like it. It has nothing to do with forcing yourself not to disagree with anyone. Judgement gets a bad rep because of things like racism and sectarian violence. But judgment is also what gave us the modern world. Most of what have been accomplished was due to a culture of criticism. Even religion today is not what it used to be because of those who dared to challenge it.

These ideals of tolerance fetishism does nobody any good in the long run. Judgment must be exercised rationally, calmly, and moderately.

That's a damn good post.

Edit: You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to SiroMar again.

 

[addictionary]

You guys know that some of the traditions that many people, especially Christians still follow are rooted from pagan rituals, right? For instance, Christmas trees! I'd never give up on those and new years eve even if they were satanic or spaghetti monster!

 

[Dr. Jones]

You guys know that some of the traditions that many people, especially Christians still follow are rooted from pagan rituals, right? For instance, Christmas trees! I'd never give up on those and new years eve even if they were satanic or spaghetti monster!

Yeah, I think everybody knows that, duh.