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The Debates

PKM said:
Some of the statements that are made are too complicated to call a lie. I'm being serious.
You can twist data, projections, and cause/effect however you please. There's almost always more than one answer.
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I know what you are saying. Things like how many jobs were created and blah blah blah, but there are things that are either right or wrong. Either its a fact or not. Such as, did so and so politician vote on this or that bill. I hear that one all the time. One guy will say my opponent voted for the (ex: bailouts), and the other will deny it. Or any other bills they talk about. So there are things that could be fact checked right there. Again, I could care less about how much time it would take, or how boring it would be. This **** important. I think its a joke the way they conduct the debates. No real information is ever discussed.

The **** just boggles the mind to watch two guys call each other a liar back and forth with no one calling anyone out on their ******** right there.

Politicians just prey on the ignorance of the masses.
 
Steve Wynn;

WYNN: I've created about 250,000 direct and indirect jobs according to the state of Nevada's measurement. If the number is 250,000, that's exactly 250,000 more than this president, who I'll be damned if I want to have him lecture me about small business and jobs. I'm a job creator. Guys like me are job creators and we don't like having a bulls-eye painted on our back.

The president is trying to put himself between me and my employees. By class warfare, by deprecating and calling a group that makes money 'billionaires and millionaires who don't pay their share.' I gave 120% of my salary and bonus away last year to charities, as I do most years. I can't stand the idea of being demagogued, that is put down by a president who has never created any jobs and who doesn't even understand how the economy works.
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Hack said:
I know what you are saying. Things like how many jobs were created and blah blah blah, but there are things that are either right or wrong. Either its a fact or not. Such as, did so and so politician vote on this or that bill. I hear that one all the time. One guy will say my opponent voted for the (ex: bailouts), and the other will deny it. Or any other bills they talk about. So there are things that could be fact checked right there. Again, I could care less about how much time it would take, or how boring it would be. This **** important. I think its a joke the way they conduct the debates. No real information is ever discussed.

The **** just boggles the mind to watch two guys call each other a liar back and forth with no one calling anyone out on their ******** right there.

Politicians just prey on the ignorance of the masses.
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". . . whenever the people are well-informed, they can be trusted with their own government; that, whenever things get so far wrong as to attract their notice, they may be relied on to set them right." ~Thomas Jefferson
 
Looking at the polls this morning I can see a rare outcome.

Romney is at 191 EC. votes and Obama at 237 EC votes according to CNN>

If Romney wins CO, FL, N.C. (aead now in these states) and NV, VA and IA (Obama is ahead but ROmney is surging hard and all are now within 1%)

AND

Obama wins the other tossups (according to CNN) of N.H., WI and OH...

That places teh EC at 269 all. What happens then?
 
PKM said:
Steve Wynn;
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..if you haven't already read Leon Cooperman's letter to Obama (everyone should)...

There are too many good lines to pick from--everything from charity, paying higher taxes, benefits from strong education system, hard work & luck, considering breaking up too big too fail--but this one stood out to me the most:

Capitalism is not the source of our problems, as an economy or as a society, and capitalists are not the scourge that they are too often made out to be. As a group, we employ many millions of taxpaying people, pay their salaries, provide them with healthcare coverage, start new companies, found new industries, create new products, fill store shelves at Christmas, and keep the wheels of commerce and progress (and indeed of government, by generating the income whose taxation funds it) moving. To frame the debate as one of rich-and-entitled versus poor-and-dispossessed is to both miss the point and further inflame an already incendiary environment. It is also a naked, political pander to some of the basest human emotions - a strategy, as history teaches, that never ends well for anyone but totalitarians and anarchists.
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https://www.thestreet.com/tsc/common/images/pdf/Omega Advisor1.pdf
 
Stoked said:
That places teh EC at 269 all. What happens then?
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I believe that after the first round of voting, the electors can change gtheir vote. If they can't reach an agreement, the House of Representatives chooses the President. This is not unprecedented, it was how John Quincy Adams became President, IIRC.
 
PKM said:
Steve Wynn;
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The president is trying to put himself between me and my employees. By class warfare, by deprecating and calling a group that makes money 'billionaires and millionaires who don't pay their share.' I gave 120% of my salary and bonus away last year to charities, as I do most years. I can't stand the idea of being demagogued, that is put down by a president who has never created any jobs and who doesn't even understand how the economy works.
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Well, as long as he's not being hyperbolic. Seriously 120%? He's rapidly going broke? More likely, his main income is investments, which dwarfs his slary and bonuses, and he pays a lower rate than I do. Class warfare means he'd be expected to pay as a similar percentage to me.
 
FWIW it's worth, I see quite a few of these power players as extremely patriotic & holding the best interest of America in their hearts. I have a lot of admiration for Cooperman & love listening to his ideas, even if he is a once head of Goldman Sachs. Quite a few of these billionaires, especially the older, tamer, established ones, are very admirable people. I don't know if they've risen above their own competitive fire or what, but they're definitely not the big bad ogres that Jamie Dimon, "God's work" Blankfein, & Hammering Hank Paulson come across as.

One Brow said:
Because the President who support bailing out GM and propping up the Wall Street Banks is such a huge threat to capitalism? Really?
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For hells sake, OB. Read the damn letter first. Maybe you can demonize him for joining Buffett's Giving Pledge, just like you're trying to do with Wynn.
 
One Brow said:
I believe that after the first round of voting, the electors can change gtheir vote. If they can't reach an agreement, the House of Representatives chooses the President. This is not unprecedented, it was how John Quincy Adams became President, IIRC.
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Oh wow. That would be insane. Can any of you imagine the hysteria and down right anger of either side that lost that. All it would take is one.

Whatever side that lost would be rabid. In todays no compromise political atmosphere would changing EC votes be the straw that broke the camel's back?
 
Stoked said:
Oh wow. That would be insane. Can any of you imagine the hysteria and down right anger of either side that lost that. All it would take is one.

Whatever side that lost would be rabid. In todays no compromise political atmosphere would changing EC votes be the straw that broke the camel's back?
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RantinAl.jpg
 
I see that as different. Gore challenged it in court and lost. The EC was never tied. I am not interested in arguing fraud, scams or any other crap.

Was the political enviroment back then as poisonous as it is now?
 
Stoked said:
I see that as different. Gore challenged it in court and lost. The EC was never tied. I am not interested in arguing fraud, scams or any other crap.

Was the political enviroment back then as poisonous as it is now?
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It wasn't meant to be an exact correlary .. just poking fun at the Gorester.
 
franklin said:
FWIW it's worth, I see quite a few of these power players as extremely patriotic & holding the best interest of America in their hearts.
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I don't doubt their sincerity.

However, it's a mistake to blame Obama for the partisan nature of this debate. He's been a centrist, willing to work with Congress, and compromised on many points (which you regularly bring up as broken promises or flip-flops). The Democratic Party generally, and Obama specifically, has not moved left since the days of Clinton or even Reagan. It's the Republicans who have moved right, away from let's-get-it-done and toward my-way-or-the-highway, to the point where, at a time when we have lower taxes than pretty much at any point in past 100 years, tax hikes are being decried as socialist and abortion-prevention mesures like birth control pills are repression. The Republicans, intentiallonally or not, benefit from the Golden Mean fallacy to a huge degree.

franklin said:
Maybe you can demonize him for joining Buffett's Giving Pledge, just like you're trying to do with Wynn.
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Some people are getting so partisan that they say a claim of "hyperbolic" is "demonization" of the speakier.
 
One Brow said:
I don't doubt their sincerity.

It's the Republicans who have moved right, away from let's-get-it-done and toward my-way-or-the-highway, to the point where, at a time when we have lower taxes than pretty much at any point in past 100 years, tax hikes are being decried as socialist and abortion-prevention mesures like birth control pills are repression.
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Actually, (as much as I dislike Republicans) the Tea Party and Occupy movements have been forcing Republicans to follow a more constitutional platform.
Your my-way-or-the-highway point doesn't really have any merit when they're just following the constitution, when Democrats completely supersede the document.

Taxes are the lowest than pretty much any point in the last 100 years?
Just to name a few of the invisible ones off-hand.

Are you forgetting the inflation tax, cell phone taxes and surcharges, internet taxes and surcharges, cable TV taxes and surcharges, or all interest incurred by the Federal Reserve?

Just the inflation tax alone would put America in it's highest point of tax percentage in it's history.
 
Stoked said:
Looking at the polls this morning I can see a rare outcome.

Romney is at 191 EC. votes and Obama at 237 EC votes according to CNN>

If Romney wins CO, FL, N.C. (aead now in these states) and NV, VA and IA (Obama is ahead but ROmney is surging hard and all are now within 1%)

AND

Obama wins the other tossups (according to CNN) of N.H., WI and OH...

That places teh EC at 269 all. What happens then?
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This is incorrect. I got Iowa and Ohio backwards. Obama leads in Ohio by .8 and leads in Iowa by 3.something.

Switch OH and IA in my formula and Romney wins.
 
TheSilencer1313 said:
Your my-way-or-the-highway point doesn't really have any merit when they're just following the constitution, when Democrats completely supersede the document.
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I disagree that Democrats are failing to follow the Constitution.

TheSilencer1313 said:
Taxes are the lowest than pretty much any point in the last 100 years?
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According to most independent economists who study the issue. maybe they've forgotten about all the taxes you mention.
 
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