Yankees falling apart. We are watching the beginning of the end.
MLB Postseason
- Thread starter UGLI baby
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GVC
Well-Known Member
The dude's been one of the worst defensive shortstops for years and is wildly overpaid.
fatchipper
Well-Known Member
GVC
Well-Known Member
Those who have half a clue about measurement agree with me. Why should I care about what morons think?
Dude's still a valuable player, yes, but he's barely cracked the top 10 in WAR among MLB shortstops the last 3 years, while making over $53mm. There are plenty of fans of teams with better shortstops who don't want Jeter on their team, even if only for the $$.
candrew
Well-Known Member
Yes, I read the study. It's 7 years old. And since then his defense has improved considerably - even Bill James attested to that.
Let's put it this way, at the balls he's able to get to he's an excellent SS. That may not be enough for you; but it's enough for the people who watch him play day in, day out.
GVC
Well-Known Member
What study? I'm looking at defensive metrics for the most recent seasons. He's a below average defensive shortstop right now. While current "advanced" defensive metrics are far from perfect, they're a hell of a lot more meaningful than fielding percentage. Even if you ignore defense (and base running) entirely though, Jeter ranks 4th in wOBA and 5th in wRC+ among qualified shortstops over the last 3 years (11th in WAR). Good ranks, obviously, but it's not a stretch to say that there are some fans out there who wouldn't want Jeter on their team (ignoring the loads of fans who don't want him on their team for irrational reasons), especially factoring in his contract (that is, I never claimed he sucked).
trigg3r
Well-Known Member
Anyone who believes Jeter is a good defensive shortstop is delusional. Anyone who points towards gold gloves as evidence is equally delusional. Gold gloves have as much to do with your bat in the last 15 years as anything. Would I take Jeter as my shortstop over a career? Of course. But the metrics prove he is not an elite defensive shortstop like some Yankee fans seem to think he was. Does he make fewer errors than a Starlin Castro? Sure he does. He also couldn't even dream of getting to balls that Castro makes plays on.
Boondocksaint27
Active Member
I'm a tried and true Yankee hater, but I have nothing but respect for Jeter. Defensively he's always been a little limited, but he has a nose for the ball and a high baseball IQ that allows him to make special plays in the field (like the throw against Oakland in the 02, I believe, divisional round to nail Giambi at the plate). Offensively he's clutch and he doesn't rattle. An all-around special player. He's dropped off defensively more in the latter years, but I'd still want him at the plate in a key situation. It's a shame he got injured, but I am enjoying watching A-Fraud, Granderson, and Cano's offensive ineptitude.
trigg3r
Well-Known Member
All of the above is absolutely true about Jeter. High baseball IQ, fantastic offensive player, and makes the plays that he should make.
That's one of the most heads-up defensive plays I've ever seen. I'm still mad at Giambi for not sliding.
candrew
Well-Known Member
Correct - but that's only half the story. At practice one day Jeter told Don Zimmer that on singles to right with the play to home, the SS pretty much had no purpose, he suggested that he should start backing up the cut off man much like the pitcher customarily backs up home plate. The point is, it wasn't a fluke or merely a heads-up play that Jeter was where he was when he made the flip. He was where he was because he understands what it takes to win. These are the kinds of things that Sabermetrics or any stat can't quantify. And these are the types of things that Yankee fans see Jeter do 10 - 12 times a year every year that win baseball games.
trigg3r
Well-Known Member
You would have a point if this was a common practice by Jeter. We have seen it once and that's it. It was a fantastic play but it certainly isn't something that you can count on to be honest. You are speaking more to his baseball IQ in one play then to him being a great defensive shortstop. I agree that sabremetrics can't account for every little detail(especially defensively), but it gives us the best picture we have right now. Is Jeter someone everyone would want on their team? Of course. We can't however go as far as to say he is a great defensive shortstop. Like I said, the gold glove argument died when they took offensive statistics into consideration for a defensive award. They obviously started doing this when they gave guys like Rafael Palmero(who started a total of 28 games at 1st base) a gold glove.
//r00t 4 Jazz
Well-Known Member
Maybe it is just me but Giambi still looked safe to me, like tie goes to the runner type safe, however I am a yankee hater so my judgement is clouded no doubt.
He is over the course of his career a great SS even if he is currently a slightly above average SS with highly touted or renowned leadership skills. If you took contract size out of it I'm sure more teams then not would take him as their starting SS, however he is over paid and Jeter knew he had the yankees by the short hairs or they'd take a bad PR hit letting him go after giving all that $$$ to keep AfRod.
He is over the course of his career a great SS even if he is currently a slightly above average SS with highly touted or renowned leadership skills. If you took contract size out of it I'm sure more teams then not would take him as their starting SS, however he is over paid and Jeter knew he had the yankees by the short hairs or they'd take a bad PR hit letting him go after giving all that $$$ to keep AfRod.
It's just you. He was out, forever cementing his reputation as a bonehead player who was more interested in the perks of the game than playing the game.
I don't follow baseball a ton, so maybe this would apply to either brother and you could very well be talking about the correct one, but it was Jeremy Giambi who got out on the play, not Jason.
I know it was Jeremy. Jason also loves the perks, but he took the game fairly seriously. You can't be an MVP without being a fairly serious player; Jeremy was a bonehead and not sliding was one of the biggest bonehead plays ever.
I can't look up video of the play while at work, but was anybody (base coach, player on deck) calling for him to slide? It seems fairly obvious he should have known to do that on his own, but someone else should have been helping in that regard.