Gut the team

[fishonjazz]

WTF? Lol.

Who hired Corbin then?

C'mon man, stop being delusional. So according to you, KOC is only responsible for the good things.?

I believe that greg miller hired corbin. You think KOC decides who coaches? I didn't know that, i thought he was just in charge of PLAYER PERSONELL, i didnt know he ran the whole organization.

 

[Hotdog]

I believe that greg miller hired corbin. You think KOC decides who coaches? I didn't know that, i thought he was just in charge of PLAYER PERSONELL, i didnt know he ran the whole organization.

Thats wtf the GM does, hire the coach and pick ALL the players. Not just the four you like.

Greg Miller hires the president. The president hires the GM. The Gm hires the coaches and players. The coach hires his assistants. Thats the way it works for the most part. Every team is a little different. The Jazz usually do everything together and help each other make decisions. But for the most part, KOC makes the final decision on all team personnel. Or at least he did. Lindsey had nothing to do with building this team.

 

[fishonjazz]

I had no idea that the GM chooses the coach. If thats the case then koc screwed up choosing corbin.
I always thought that the GM was only responsible for players not coaches.

Well i learned something new today i guess.
Thanks hack.

 

[//r00t 4 Jazz]

Interesting. I've never liked Corbin and from day one pretty much hated the hire. I also never liked bringing in Marvin or Foye. Mo I understood because of a glaring need at pg but I also didn't understand the love that most threw upon him as he joined our squad.

To be brief, we have a young squad who is very talented and at the age where they're highly impressionable. We only get one chance during their youth to teach them right, get the best out of them, and build something here. To waste it with Corbin at the helm is beyond ****ing retarded.

This is the theme for almost everybody around JF, everybody who hated the hire has never liked it and never really gave him an honest chance, not just with Corbin but you can <insert players name here> and it would apply for the negative or the positive.

I think we should change the name of the board to I have my own Jazz agenda Fanz.

There has not been a coach or player I haven't literally cussed at through my TV several times this season. Corbin pisses me off several times every quarter just as Jefferson and so far this season I have yelled at Millsap more then I can ever remember.

Difference is I am boring and this board would be much more boring if more people were like me. I think the Jazz FO had a plan of letting Corbin grow and learn with this young roster and the same way at the end of the rookie contract if they pan out you try and keep them and if they don't you let them go.

People complain Corbin doesn't have balls to make changes (yet he has just not ones most fans agree with), people complain the starting line up sucks cause they keep getting off to slow starts and they want to see the big line up. Well the big line up started slower then the other line ups so far this season (granted only 2 games).

But that leads me to my complaint if Corbin doesn't have the balls everybody one says that means he has to play to win now for fear of his job. Which that would come from ownership, KOC and the Jazz FO, if they wanted him to develop the young'uns at the expense of wins he would (again due to lack of balls stated by fans here).

Sorry for rambling, let me ramble one more sec however just cause I don't want to add it anywhere else. Before, during and After the road loss to NOH, many people said Thibodeau wouldn't let that happen he's a defensive genius, his team promptly lost AT HOME to this same NOH team. Then these same people say Pop wouldn't let his team stick around for close games home or road, guess your right he only let his team go to 2OT to beat the Raptors instead of 3OT's.

*No I'm not comparing Corbin to either, obviously both those coaches have proven to be WAY better coaches*

 

[fishonjazz]

This is the theme for almost everybody around JF, everybody who hated the hire has never liked it and never really gave him an honest chance, not just with Corbin but you can <insert players name here> and it would apply for the negative or the positive.

I think we should change the name of the board to I have my own Jazz agenda Fanz.

There has not been a coach or player I haven't literally cussed at through my TV several times this season. Corbin pisses me off several times every quarter just as Jefferson and so far this season I have yelled at Millsap more then I can ever remember.

Difference is I am boring and this board would be much more boring if more people were like me. I think the Jazz FO had a plan of letting Corbin grow and learn with this young roster and the same way at the end of the rookie contract if they pan out you try and keep them and if they don't you let them go.

People complain Corbin doesn't have balls to make changes (yet he has just not ones most fans agree with), people complain the starting line up sucks cause they keep getting off to slow starts and they want to see the big line up. Well the big line up started slower then the other line ups so far this season (granted only 2 games).

But that leads me to my complaint if Corbin doesn't have the balls everybody one says that means he has to play to win now for fear of his job. Which that would come from ownership, KOC and the Jazz FO, if they wanted him to develop the young'uns at the expense of wins he would (again due to lack of balls stated by fans here).

Sorry for rambling, let me ramble one more sec however just cause I don't want to add it anywhere else. Before, during and After the road loss to NOH, many people said Thibodeau wouldn't let that happen he's a defensive genius, his team promptly lost AT HOME to this same NOH team. Then these same people say Pop wouldn't let his team stick around for close games home or road, guess your right he only let his team go to 2OT to beat the Raptors instead of 3OT's.

*No I'm not comparing Corbin to either, obviously both those coaches have proven to be WAY better coaches*

I think you are wrong.
I was fine with hiring corbin in the beginning and even after we got swept in the playoffs i got into a big arguement with one of my friends who wanted corbin gone. I was defending corbin and making excuses about deron leaving, sloans abrupt retirement, no offseason, no pre-season or fall camp, lockout shortened season. I defended him alot.
But he keeps making the same big time mistake (favoring vets over youth in every situation even when the vet isn't very good) and my patience is now gone.
What he is doing with burks is extremely frustrating.

 

[Hotdog]

I had no idea that the GM chooses the coach. If thats the case then koc screwed up choosing corbin.
I always thought that the GM was only responsible for players not coaches.

Well i learned something new today i guess.
Thanks hack.

Hm.

Thats refreshing. Usually someone will just keep arguing even if they are wrong around here. Good on ya for willing to learn.

Ya, the GM hires the coaches in every sport for every team, with maybe a few exceptions that I am unaware of. Just look at the most recent coaching change for the Lakers. Mitch Kupchak, the GM of the Lakers, was the one who hired D'antoni and fired Mike Brown.

 

[bjunior]

Sorry for rambling, let me ramble one more sec however just cause I don't want to add it anywhere else. Before, during and After the road loss to NOH, many people said Thibodeau wouldn't let that happen he's a defensive genius, his team promptly lost AT HOME to this same NOH team. Then these same people say Pop wouldn't let his team stick around for close games home or road, guess your right he only let his team go to 2OT to beat the Raptors instead of 3OT's.

*No I'm not comparing Corbin to either, obviously both those coaches have proven to be WAY better coaches*

NOH played without Anthony Davis
TOR played without Lowry

I may be wrong, but I guess the complaints are not about losses, but about how they lose, about the game.. no energy, no defense, no fun to watch

 

[Hotdog]

I think you are wrong.
I was fine with hiring corbin in the beginning and even after we got swept in the playoffs i got into a big arguement with one of my friends who wanted corbin gone. I was defending corbin and making excuses about deron leaving, sloans abrupt retirement, no offseason, no pre-season or fall camp, lockout shortened season. I defended him alot.
But he keeps making the same big time mistake (favoring vets over youth in every situation even when the vet isn't very good) and my patience is now gone.
What he is doing with burks is extremely frustrating.

Im not too happy with Corbin either, but I cant place all the blame on him. The management of the Jazz need to make his decisions easier on him. Keeping the log jam of bigs around, and loading up the team with vets, sends the message of win now. Corbin is in a tough spot. He has to worry about what his boss will think if he benches Al, who is the highest scorer, and highest paid player.

 

[Hotdog]

NOH played without Anthony Davis
TOR played without Lowry

I may be wrong, but I guess the complaints are not about losses, but about how they lose, about the game.. no energy, no defense, no fun to watch

This is true.

I would rather watch us lose giving all our effort than watch over paid vets mail it in on defense.

 

[Mission Accomplished]

Weird..

Everbody hates Corbin
Everybody hates Jefferson
Everybody pretty much hates the direction of the team.

But somehow everybody here thinks KOC is/was the best GM to ever walk the planet.

Makes sense

OH no you didn't

 

[Mission Accomplished]

Corbin = Everything good and pure in the Universe

 

[Mission Accomplished]

[video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YWyCCJ6B2WE

Ignore the man behind the curtain

 

[Brown Notes]

This is a good post but i would argue that the teams you mentioned (washington, GS, toronto) while having some lottery picks, do not have 4 lottery picks from just 2 draft classes.
Thoses teams you mentioned are continually in the lotter and therefore get 1 good pick per year, the jazz on the other hand got 4 good picks in only 2 years.
Not many teams have two #3 picks plus a 9 and 12 pick in just 2 years all without having a bad record.
So GS, washington and toronto have not been in the jazz situation.

I think that last year and this year the jazz COULD have played burks and kanter 20 minutes per game and favors and hayward 30 minutes per game and still had a good record and possibly made the playoffs even (much different than the teams you mentioned).
Also you must look at who was playing ahead of burks and to some extent taking minutes from hayward: Howard, bell, cj miles..... would we really have been much worse if more of those players minutes had went to hayward and burks? Doubtful.
So to me the jazz (mainly corbin) screwed up big time by giving minutes to CJ, bell and howard (all gone btw) instead of burks and hayward taking more of thier minutes.

Whats worse is that now they are doing it again: Giving minutes to foye instead of burks when foye will probably be gone next year just like cj, bell, and howard is just adding to the mistakes of last year.

Couple things.

I don't know how Hayward gets used as an example of a guy who was being robbed of minutes. He averaged over 30 mpg last season. It's not just you, but for some reason there is a haunting assumption around here that somehow Bell and Howard were killing the guy's development. Just had to get that out.

Anyways the main example I was talking about was the https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/2005.html 2004 Bulls.

Chandler(2nd overall)& Curry(4th overall) at 3 years, Heinrich (7th) a year in, Ben Gordon (3rd) & Luol Deng (7th) rookies. This team also sported 3 other non-lottery rooks. Now, in hindsight, not all of those guys were going to be great but basically with most of this core they got good enough to get stomped by the Pistons in the EC semis the next year, just one appearance. This is who I see when I think of the vision of Wes/Freak who would have loved to have jettisoned all the veterans and tanked last year to hopefully get both draft picks.

My point being, no matter how lottery picks you assemble, unless one of them is a transcendent talent as a prospect ala Derrick Rose (whom the Bulls eventually got of course after repeating the Wes cycle several times) you aren't going anywhere with them and playing them starter minutes simply seasons the players for their next destination.

Also, whether you are a supporter of Ty or not, he is probably the only coach in the league who was going to continue to attempt to implement the Flex, and if you play a bunch of noobs you can't run any real offense. Thibs and Brooks emphasize D but offensively it's just give the ball to the star and work it out amongst yourselves. Those players aren't learning to play San Antonio ball (or Sloan Ball). Of course the Corbin offense looks like garbage a lot of the time but he is trying to have one. In that regard Foye is hands down better than Burks since he plays and has an impact within the system. This is moot of course if, like Wes, you decided from day 1 that Corbin is a failure but personally I believe it's just as important to develop (install) a system as developing the players themselves. I do like what Ty is trying to do, emphasizing transition and moving into flex sets if it isn't there. Like I said earlier this year he doesn't get a free pass but I want to see what this thing looks like when its put together. Right now it's running like a project car with a loose distributor.

Anyways IMO rather than worry too much about how much good we can do for the players, we should be looking to package some of those assets with a starter for a much better player somebody else developed. Let the other guy play the lottery game. I'd be way more into this kind of thing if the D league was a true farm system but unfortunately the lottery teams are the farm.

 

[fishonjazz]

Couple things.

I don't know how Hayward gets used as an example of a guy who was being robbed of minutes. He averaged over 30 mpg last season. It's not just you, but for some reason there is a haunting assumption around here that somehow Bell and Howard were killing the guy's development. Just had to get that out.

Anyways the main example I was talking about was the https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/2005.html 2004 Bulls.

Chandler(2nd overall)& Curry(4th overall) at 3 years, Heinrich (7th) a year in, Ben Gordon (3rd) & Luol Deng (7th) rookies. This team also sported 3 other non-lottery rooks. Now, in hindsight, not all of those guys were going to be great but basically with most of this core they got good enough to get stomped by the Pistons in the EC semis the next year, just one appearance. This is who I see when I think of the vision of Wes/Freak who would have loved to have jettisoned all the veterans and tanked last year to hopefully get both draft picks.

My point being, no matter how lottery picks you assemble, unless one of them is a transcendent talent as a prospect ala Derrick Rose (whom the Bulls eventually got of course after repeating the Wes cycle several times) you aren't going anywhere with them and playing them starter minutes simply seasons the players for their next destination.

Also, whether you are a supporter of Ty or not, he is probably the only coach in the league who was going to continue to attempt to implement the Flex, and if you play a bunch of noobs you can't run any real offense. Thibs and Brooks emphasize D but offensively it's just give the ball to the star and work it out amongst yourselves. Those players aren't learning to play San Antonio ball (or Sloan Ball). Of course the Corbin offense looks like garbage a lot of the time but he is trying to have one. In that regard Foye is hands down better than Burks since he plays and has an impact within the system. This is moot of course if, like Wes, you decided from day 1 that Corbin is a failure but personally I believe it's just as important to develop (install) a system as developing the players themselves. I do like what Ty is trying to do, emphasizing transition and moving into flex sets if it isn't there. Like I said earlier this year he doesn't get a free pass but I want to see what this thing looks like when its put together. Right now it's running like a project car with a loose distributor.

Anyways IMO rather than worry too much about how much good we can do for the players, we should be looking to package some of those assets with a starter for a much better player somebody else developed. Let the other guy play the lottery game. I'd be way more into this kind of thing if the D league was a true farm system but unfortunately the lottery teams are the farm.

Very good reply. The only thing i would say that i have a BIG issue with (i have alot of minor issues) is that i can get behind the idea that foye is better for this team than burks, so fine give foye more minutes.... But burks needs SOME minutes somehow. That has been corbins biggest failure to me. The guys getting minutes over burks (howard, bell, cj, foye, and kinda to a lesser extent tinsley) are not good enough to warrant planting burks on the bench for dnp's

 

[Brown Notes]

I agree Burks ought to be playing even if it's just 5 minutes. I don't agree with everything Corbs does. Favors should NO QUESTION be finishing every game and we probably would have won on Saturday if he had. Burks' situation is frustrating because he looks like the kind of guy who could be that Alpha scorer to replace Al's role.

But I'm starting to think he's more DeRozan than Wade.

 

[franklin]

Very good reply. The only thing i would say that i have a BIG issue with (i have alot of minor issues) is that i can get behind the idea that foye is better for this team than burks, so fine give foye more minutes.... But burks needs SOME minutes somehow. That has been corbins biggest failure to me. The guys getting minutes over burks (howard, bell, cj, foye, and kinda to a lesser extent tinsley) are not good enough to warrant planting burks on the bench for dnp's

Myth. Burks played very close to the average of players taken 10-14 over the last several years. He also played little in the front of the season as there was no training camp to teach him the offense Once he learned his minutes went up significantly, on average. If you're dying for a reason to hang TyCo shouldn't you at least be factual and honest about it?

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

Couple things.

I don't know how Hayward gets used as an example of a guy who was being robbed of minutes. He averaged over 30 mpg last season. It's not just you, but for some reason there is a haunting assumption around here that somehow Bell and Howard were killing the guy's development. Just had to get that out.

Anyways the main example I was talking about was the https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/2005.html 2004 Bulls.

Chandler(2nd overall)& Curry(4th overall) at 3 years, Heinrich (7th) a year in, Ben Gordon (3rd) & Luol Deng (7th) rookies. This team also sported 3 other non-lottery rooks. Now, in hindsight, not all of those guys were going to be great but basically with most of this core they got good enough to get stomped by the Pistons in the EC semis the next year, just one appearance. This is who I see when I think of the vision of Wes/Freak who would have loved to have jettisoned all the veterans and tanked last year to hopefully get both draft picks.

My point being, no matter how lottery picks you assemble, unless one of them is a transcendent talent as a prospect ala Derrick Rose (whom the Bulls eventually got of course after repeating the Wes cycle several times) you aren't going anywhere with them and playing them starter minutes simply seasons the players for their next destination.

Also, whether you are a supporter of Ty or not, he is probably the only coach in the league who was going to continue to attempt to implement the Flex, and if you play a bunch of noobs you can't run any real offense. Thibs and Brooks emphasize D but offensively it's just give the ball to the star and work it out amongst yourselves. Those players aren't learning to play San Antonio ball (or Sloan Ball). Of course the Corbin offense looks like garbage a lot of the time but he is trying to have one. In that regard Foye is hands down better than Burks since he plays and has an impact within the system. This is moot of course if, like Wes, you decided from day 1 that Corbin is a failure but personally I believe it's just as important to develop (install) a system as developing the players themselves. I do like what Ty is trying to do, emphasizing transition and moving into flex sets if it isn't there. Like I said earlier this year he doesn't get a free pass but I want to see what this thing looks like when its put together. Right now it's running like a project car with a loose distributor.

Anyways IMO rather than worry too much about how much good we can do for the players, we should be looking to package some of those assets with a starter for a much better player somebody else developed. Let the other guy play the lottery game. I'd be way more into this kind of thing if the D league was a true farm system but unfortunately the lottery teams are the farm.

What team is going to trade this player they developed (who is an upgrade over our C+ guys) to us? Teams are just giving great players away now? Good to know. Or are you just looking for a marginally solid player like Hayward and Marvin? I mean, if that's the case, I'm sure we could trick some teams into swapping a couple of said studs to us.

How long do you give Ty? He's been the HC for a year and a half now. I suppose we should just shut our mouths and let him continue to fumble around? Maybe another Spurs' sweep with Jefferson acting as the revolving door will wake you the **** up? Or maybe once Millsap walks, you'll figure out Ty was ****ing things up. Or maybe once Favors does? How long do we wait?

Right now, it's not a project car with a loose distributor. It's a project car and Ty doesn't know what the **** is wrong with it, how to fix it, and where the hell he'd like to drive it.

 

[fishonjazz]

I agree Burks ought to be playing even if it's just 5 minutes. I don't agree with everything Corbs does. Favors should NO QUESTION be finishing every game and we probably would have won on Saturday if he had. Burks' situation is frustrating because he looks like the kind of guy who could be that Alpha scorer to replace Al's role.

But I'm starting to think he's more DeRozan than Wade.

I hope he's more wade (thats what i was thinking when we drafted him) but you are probably right with the derozan comparison..... which wouldn't be the worst thing ever but definately not what i was hoping for.

 

[NUMBERICA]

The Corbin hire was boneheaded wishful-thinking. There's a reason teams hire interim THEN do research and make a decision. Maybe he ends up working out and maybe he doesn't, but so far I am not impressed. The Jazz didn't have to immediately extend him, and that they chose to shows how amateur this organization can be at times.

That said, Corbin has no easy choices to make with minute distribution. If he starts benching vets hard like everyone wants then the players' trade value gets murdered. KOC/Lindsey need to step up and clear some timber. Plain and simple. KOC probably should've done that last year, but that he hasn't yet (Al specifically) is a huge mistake.

And for the record, I haven't really watched any games this year and I don't really give a ****.

 

[Thee Idiotic Minivan K]

nah we just have to gut corbin and jefferson and Millsap.

their fixed.