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Gun Control

JimLes said:
That's the risk I'd be willing to take. At least I could then easily assume that everyone with a gun is a bad guy. Right now, I'm supposed to trust you when you claim you're not.
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So you would be willing to identify the bad guys. But who would stop them? This country would be at the mercy of criminals and police if they were the only ones with firearms.

Every store would be vulnerable and unable to have their own security. Every nut job would be able to get a gun and have confidence that they could do a lot of damage before getting stopped.

We don't take cars away from people because of drunk drivers. Why do we need to take guns away from people because of criminals? It makes no sense to me.
 
gregbroncs said:
So you would be willing to identify the bad guys. But who would stop them? This country would be at the mercy of criminals and police if they were the only ones with firearms.

Every store would be vulnerable and unable to have their own security. Every nut job would be able to get a gun and have confidence that they could do a lot of damage before getting stopped.

We don't take cars away from people because of drunk drivers. Why do we need to take guns away from people because of criminals? It makes no sense to me.
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Cars and guns are different from one another.
 
fishonjazz said:
So it sounds like we dont want it to be any harder for the "good guys" to be able to get guns, but i think we would all agree that we do want it to be more difficult for the "bad guys" to get them.

So anybody have a good way to make this happen?
Bronco, you seem to be pretty smart and know your gun laws... do you have any thoughts on how this could be achieved?
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Unfortunately, as Salty pointed out, bad guys don't generally use legitimate channels to acquire their guns. IMO, laws constructed to make it more difficult to get one have more impact on law abiding gun owners. That's not to say there shouldn't be any. I'm all for background checks, waiting periods, and such. Some who shouldn't own will stopped this way. But those who procure guns for malicious reasons, there isn't a lot that can be implemented that will have significant effect. There are just too many guns out there. I wish I had a better answer, but I think simply being more diligent about enforcing current laws would make a difference. As far as private transactions go, well, they're going to happen. If I were selling a gun, I would require a CC. You can found negligent if a gun used in a crime is traced back to you w/o proper paperwork. In theory, that should be enough incentive to take care in who you sell to, but again, the bad element doesn't regard the law anyway.
 
Bronco70 said:
Unfortunately, as Salty pointed out, bad guys don't generally use legitimate channels to acquire their guns. IMO, laws constructed to make it more difficult to get one have more impact on law abiding gun owners. That's not to say there shouldn't be any. I'm all for background checks, waiting periods, and such. Some who shouldn't own will stopped this way. But those who procure guns for malicious reasons, there isn't a lot that can be implemented that will have significant effect. There are just too many guns out there. I wish I had a better answer, but I think simply being more diligent about enforcing current laws would make a difference. As far as private transactions go, well, they're going to happen. If I were selling a gun, I would require a CC. You can found negligent if a gun used in a crime is traced back to you w/o proper paperwork. In theory, that should be enough incentive to take care in who you sell to, but again, the bad element doesn't regard the law anyway.
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Great post.... this is the conclusion that i have come to as well.
 
the thriller said:
had those weapons been banned, his mother wouldn't have had them and adam wouldn't have had them. What evidence do we have that he would have tapped into the "black market" and purchased those weapons?

i'm not seeing the evidence that the "bad guys" will just end up with guns anyway. Some might. Some won't.

regulate this stuff. If you can pass the requirements then you have nothing to be afraid of. If it doesn't affect anyone and anyone truly can just go to the black market to get this stuff then what's the big deal about the added regulation? Why cry about it if you can just go to the black market?
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hahahahaha
 
Bronco70 said:
...There are just too many guns out there. I wish I had a better answer, but I think simply being more diligent about enforcing current laws would make a difference....

...but again, the bad element doesn't regard the law anyway.
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for the most part, the "bad element" sort of sticks to its own kind...

it's the unbalanced (who are generally not what I think of when someone refers to the "bad element) that go out and randomly shoot strangers for no apparent reasons

we know how Adam Lanza got his guns, but what about Jared Loughner, Dylan Klebold, James Holmes, the VaTech and NIU shooters - where did the system break down as far as they are concerned?

at any rate, the key part of your statement - that there are "just too many guns" is critical

and not just that, but it seems to me (despite everyone's arguments here to the contrary) that there are just TOO MANY GUN OWNERS who have TOO CAVALIER an attitude about their weapons.

definitely needs to be mandatory jail time for anyone whose gun is used in a crime, whether it was stolen or lost - - especially if they failed to report it

and no more internet sales or sales at gun shows or other less regulated venues in my opinion, at least not without some very stringent checks and balances in place

I know some of you will howl at that, but come on...

is there any room for compromise on this issue?
 
moevillini said:
for the most part, the "bad element" sort of sticks to its own kind...

it's the unbalanced (who are generally not what I think of when someone refers to the "bad element) that go out and randomly shoot strangers for no apparent reasons

we know how Adam Lanza got his guns, but what about Jared Loughner, Dylan Klebold, James Holmes, the VaTech and NIU shooters - where did the system break down as far as they are concerned?

at any rate, the key part of your statement - that there are "just too many guns" is critical

and not just that, but it seems to me (despite everyone's arguments here to the contrary) that there are just TOO MANY GUN OWNERS who have TOO CAVALIER an attitude about their weapons.

definitely needs to be mandatory jail time for anyone whose gun is used in a crime, whether it was stolen or lost - - especially if they failed to report it

and no more internet sales or sales at gun shows or other less regulated venues in my opinion, at least not without some very stringent checks and balances in place

I know some of you will howl at that, but come on...

is there any room for compromise on this issue?
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Did any of the mass shooters get their guns at a gun show or from the net?

The left attacking those things to me are like the right pushing for restrictive laws to curb voter fraud.

It seems like we're headed for minority report. Isn't that the movie about punishing for crimes that haven't been committed yet? That's pretty much the same thing, to me, as telling someone, "You're okay right now, and haven't done anything wrong, but we think you might do something wrong someday, so you're not allowed to buy any guns."
 
SaltyDawg said:
Did any of the mass shooters get their guns at a gun show or from the net?

The left attacking those things to me are like the right pushing for restrictive laws to curb voter fraud.

It seems like we're headed for minority report. Isn't that the movie about punishing for crimes that haven't been committed yet? That's pretty much the same thing, to me, as telling someone, "You're okay right now, and haven't done anything wrong, but we think you might do something wrong someday, so you're not allowed to buy any guns."
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In your post say "You're okay right now, and haven't done anything wrong, but we think you might do something wrong someday, so you're not allowed to buy any guns."
I dont think he was saying that.... you and i and most people can still buy guns, we just have to go to stores that sell them and pass background checks..... He said "no more internet sales or sales at gun shows or other less regulated venues in my opinion, at least not without some very stringent checks and balances in place."
So stop putting words in peoples mouths..... you are acting as if he said Ban guns, no guns for anyone. which is not at all what he was implying.
 
Most of the gun control ideas that people are suggesting will not even effect most of us so i dont understand why pro gun people are freaking out.

Oh no ksl stopped selling guns..... So what? just go to a gun store to get your guns. Whats the big deal?

If ksl stopped selling coffee tables, then i would go to wallmart or rc willey or something to get a coffee table... and i like coffee tables and use them all the time but i would't freak out if ksl stopped selling them.
 
gregbroncs said:
So you would be willing to identify the bad guys. But who would stop them? This country would be at the mercy of criminals and police if they were the only ones with firearms.

Every store would be vulnerable and unable to have their own security. Every nut job would be able to get a gun and have confidence that they could do a lot of damage before getting stopped.

We don't take cars away from people because of drunk drivers. Why do we need to take guns away from people because of criminals? It makes no sense to me.
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There are countries that function just fine without a gun-to-people ownership of nearly one. They aren't Mad Max-style post-apocalyptic wastelands.
 
fishonjazz said:
In your post say "You're okay right now, and haven't done anything wrong, but we think you might do something wrong someday, so you're not allowed to buy any guns."
I dont think he was saying that.... you and i and most people can still buy guns, we just have to go to stores that sell them and pass background checks..... He said "no more internet sales or sales at gun shows or other less regulated venues in my opinion, at least not without some very stringent checks and balances in place."
So stop putting words in peoples mouths..... you are acting as if he said Ban guns, no guns for anyone. which is not at all what he was implying.
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No, she said the bad people were not the problem, but the unbalanced people are the problem.

To me, that means she is talking about people who are fine and then suddenly snap one day.
 
fishonjazz said:
Most of the gun control ideas that people are suggesting will not even effect most of us so i dont understand why pro gun people are freaking out.

Oh no ksl stopped selling guns..... So what? just go to a gun store to get your guns. Whats the big deal?

If ksl stopped selling coffee tables, then i would go to wallmart or rc willey or something to get a coffee table... and i like coffee tables and use them all the time but i would't freak out if ksl stopped selling them.
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That's fine for you. But if I want to SELL my coffee table, or if I don't want to spend the money in a brand new coffee table, RC Willey is obviously not a good choice.
 
SaltyDawg said:
No, she said the bad people were not the problem, but the unbalanced people are the problem.

To me, that means she is talking about people who are fine and then suddenly snap one day.
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Again salty.... he/she said "no more internet sales or sales at gun shows or other less regulated venues in my opinion, at least not without some very stringent checks and balances in place."

Then you responded by saying "You're okay right now, and haven't done anything wrong, but we think you might do something wrong someday, so you're not allowed to buy any guns."

How was your response relevant? Moevillini was saying that if you ARE in fact ok at the time you are trying to buy the gun, then you would be able to.
 
SaltyDawg said:
That's fine for you. But if I want to SELL my coffee table, or if I don't want to spend the money in a brand new coffee table, RC Willey is obviously not a good choice.
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The point is you can still get guns.... Thats the important thing right?
I thought you want to be able get guns..... well go get some. No one is stopping you.
What are you so afraid of salty? Its wierd how the people who seem to love guns are the one who are so afraid all the time. Coincedence? Or does owning guns automatically make you fearful?
 
Salty it seems like you and many other pro gun people are very scared/concerned/worried right now... why is that the case exactly? What are you worried is going to happen?
 
fishonjazz said:
Again salty.... he/she said "no more internet sales or sales at gun shows or other less regulated venues in my opinion, at least not without some very stringent checks and balances in place."

Then you responded by saying "You're okay right now, and haven't done anything wrong, but we think you might do something wrong someday, so you're not allowed to buy any guns."

How was your response relevant? Moevillini was saying that if you ARE in fact ok at the time you are trying to buy the gun, then you would be able to.
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Was that the entire post? No? Well then, I would say chances are I was talking about a different part of the post. You know, the part I said I was talking about when I mentioned the bad people not being the problem, but the imbalanced people.
 
moevillini said:
for the most part, the "bad element" sort of sticks to its own kind...

it's the unbalanced (who are generally not what I think of when someone refers to the "bad element) that go out and randomly shoot strangers for no apparent reasons

we know how Adam Lanza got his guns, but what about Jared Loughner, Dylan Klebold, James Holmes, the VaTech and NIU shooters - where did the system break down as far as they are concerned?

at any rate, the key part of your statement - that there are "just too many guns" is critical

and not just that, but it seems to me (despite everyone's arguments here to the contrary) that there are just TOO MANY GUN OWNERS who have TOO CAVALIER an attitude about their weapons.

definitely needs to be mandatory jail time for anyone whose gun is used in a crime, whether it was stolen or lost - - especially if they failed to report it

and no more internet sales or sales at gun shows or other less regulated venues in my opinion, at least not without some very stringent checks and balances in place

I know some of you will howl at that, but come on...

is there any room for compromise on this issue?
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Absolutely not. I have two firearms in a safe. If my house gets robbed, they take the safe, open it, get the guns and use them in another robbery where someone is shot with my guns I go to jail?

Like hell.
 
fishonjazz said:
The point is you can still get guns.... Thats the important thing right?
I thought you want to be able get guns..... well go get some. No one is stopping you.
What are you so afraid of salty? Its wierd how the people who seem to love guns are the one who are so afraid all the time. Coincedence? Or does owning guns automatically make you fearful?
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Yes, I want to be able to get guns. At no point did I say that was the ONLY important thing. I also want to be able to buy guns, clips, scopes, cases, cleaning kits, etc, used.

In addition to that, I want to be able to SELL my stuff used.

You're obviously not into this so you don't know, but it's not at all uncommon for someone to buy a gun, go shooting with it a few times, then realize they like some other gun better. Maybe it fits their hand better, or the right feels better, the sites are better, or they just shoot better with it. They then sell that gun used (and ksl is the place for that in Utah, gun shows are the place everywhere else) and then use the money to buy the one they want.

You're premise of "go buy them all brand new if you want them, then keep them for life" is nonsense.
 
fishonjazz said:
Salty it seems like you and many other pro gun people are very scared/concerned/worried right now... why is that the case exactly? What are you worried is going to happen?
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Because once the government gets acceptance on gun control, there is no limit to where it will lead. When this "sensible gun control" doesn't stop the mass shootings (which it won't, for the reasons I've been saying) then we'll only get stricter gun control regulations.
 
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