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Affordable Care?

This.

And a thousand other things "wrong" with it, do indeed seem to point to this intent. . . . .

It certainly does seem like President Obama learned from Clinton's mistake in 93 and will instead try to systematically install a "Euro-like" national health care system. ACA is just a bridge to that outcome. Maybe not this year and maybe not even under Obama; but I think it will be an inevitable part of the democratic platform. Perhaps, ironically, Hillary will flip that switch in 2016?

However, when I personally throw all the rhetoric out the window and just think about this issue in terms of dollars and cents I'm left with this: Like most folks, I have my health care through my employer. Right now, with premium payments and my FSA Account, I'm spending about 6K a year on my health care (pre-tax federal) - and that's only if nothing goes wrong with anyone in my family. I have to wonder. How much would my taxes go up to support a single payer system? One thousand dollars? Two thousand? How about Three Thousand? Hell, I'd still be wayyyy ahead of the game with plenty of money left over to put back into the economy instead of throwing it into this gigantic bureaucracy that stands between myself and the medical industry.

And before you talk about not being able to choose my own doctor or long waits - we're already there. My current plan makes it virtually impossible to go out of network without bearing almost all of the expense myself. I've had private insurance through various plans and various employers since 1994 and I've watched services deteriorate and cost go up to the point where the **** bags at my current provider are now offering separate insurance for my out of pocket expenses that they no longer cover - an "insurance for my insurance" if you will. So then I'm inclined to ask - why wouldn't a single payer system benefit me?
 
It certainly does seem like President Obama learned from Clinton's mistake in 93 and will instead try to systematically install a "Euro-like" national health care system. ACA is just a bridge to that outcome. Maybe not this year and maybe not even under Obama; but I think it will be an inevitable part of the democratic platform. Perhaps, ironically, Hillary will flip that switch in 2016?

However, when I personally throw all the rhetoric out the window and just think about this issue in terms of dollars and cents I'm left with this: Like most folks, I have my health care through my employer. Right now, with premium payments and my FSA Account, I'm spending about 6K a year on my health care (pre-tax federal) - and that's only if nothing goes wrong with anyone in my family. I have to wonder. How much would my taxes go up to support a single payer system? One thousand dollars? Two thousand? How about Three Thousand? Hell, I'd still be wayyyy ahead of the game with plenty of money left over to put back into the economy instead of throwing it into this gigantic bureaucracy that stands between myself and the medical industry.

And before you talk about not being able to choose my own doctor or long waits - we're already there. My current plan makes it virtually impossible to go out of network without bearing almost all of the expense myself. I've had private insurance through various plans and various employers since 1994 and I've watched services deteriorate and cost go up to the point where the **** bags at my current provider are now offering separate insurance for my out of pocket expenses that they no longer cover - an "insurance for my insurance" if you will. So then I'm inclined to ask - why wouldn't a single payer system benefit me?

I've seen this in my own experience as well.

Some FDR-worshipping folks like Lyndon LaRouche can actually remember the old community-based hospital system. There were doctors all over the country, in rural areas, who were indeed helped by the Federal government in getting equipment and/or facilities for their local areas with Federal handouts, and it did improve the level of care available. Poor people also got care even if they couldn't pay, at least in some cases. . . . I'd never say there aren't people who just get nothing from any sort of top-down assistance plan. And there were in some, perhaps many, cases where local charity efforts pitched in significantly.

Democrats of the Hubert Humphrey mold are sympathetic characters to me, because you can take their sincerity to the bank, so to speak. What they did was meant to help the poor.

I've seen hospitals corporatized in my lifetime, with "shareholder value" based on profits become the whole point of having "hospitals", and I think there is a problem in that. Insurance started out as a sort of "cooperative" effort to pool risks and enable people to get care when they needed it, and I'm good with it in that sense. But Insurance companies have also gone purely corporate, and driven by the short-term profit equation, and I see that impacting day to day decisions that undermine the long-term issue of getting the care that will be most economical, and most life-saving, in the longer view. It produces decisions like I described above in this thread, where a new approach is denied "until it becomes the standard" of care, which delays implementation and deters innovation.

My most serious unhappiness about the ACA is that it seems to cut people out of the process in many ways. Yes, we were lied to, and yes it's going to cost more than we are willing to pay, and yes the corporates are all going to go to the bank with the money, and no, we won't get the care we really need, or the care we want. The "Act" was indeed written by industry insiders, and our politicians did indeed get big campaign donations for enacting it.
 
This coming from a guy who claimed for weeks and weeks that Romney was going to win and belittled anyone else with a different opinion??? HILARIOUS!

That part is a bold faced lie. Did I think Romney was going to win? Yes I did. However I did not belittle those who thought differently. To claim that I did is a lie and you know it is.
 
This coming from a guy who claimed for weeks and weeks that Romney was going to win and belittled anyone else with a different opinion??? HILARIOUS!

In support of Stoked, he did not belittle people with a different opinion. He may have belittled the opinions, but we all do that.
 
In support of Stoked, he did not belittle people with a different opinion. He may have belittled the opinions, but we all do that.

Thank you sir. However I see far less people belittling even opinions than people claim. Disagreeing with an opinion does not always mean you are belittling it. It depends on your tone and how you do it.
 
Which does not mean they won't have health care, just that it won't be employer provided.

I read somewhere that by 2016 the cheapest family insurance plan under the ACA would be 20k a year. Have you heard anything about that?
 
I read somewhere that by 2016 the cheapest family insurance plan under the ACA would be 20k a year. Have you heard anything about that?

I have not. It might be true. I'm currently paying a little over 10K annually right now for my not-cheapest family plan, and with the employer contribution it might well be close to 20K. Add in a little inflation, and it's over 20K even for the cheap plan.

However, since the ACA provides for discounts based on need, people do not get priced out of care.
 
I have not. It might be true. I'm currently paying a little over 10K annually right now for my not-cheapest family plan, and with the employer contribution it might well be close to 20K. Add in a little inflation, and it's over 20K even for the cheap plan.

However, since the ACA provides for discounts based on need, people do not get priced out of care.

Then it may have been useless propoganda since I cannot relocate that info. I will disregard it as such.
 
Whether or not Obamacare is "universally seen as vital to the social and economic fabric of our country" remains to be seen. Being on the wrong side of history is not necessarily a bad thing. Case in point, the Social Security Act that you tout as a vital program. I would much rather keep my money and do what I want with it instead of loaning it to the government to fart around with until I retire.

That is some very fine phraseology right there!
 
Well I think Dingellberry answered your question about this legislative monstrosity: "It takes a long time to do the necessary administrative steps that have to be taken to put the legislation together to control the people."

Liberals don't care about affordability. They are happy to increase your taxes and spend your money to enrich themselves and get more power.
 
Well I think Dingellberry answered your question about this legislative monstrosity: "It takes a long time to do the necessary administrative steps that have to be taken to put the legislation together to control the people."

Liberals don't care about affordability. They are happy to increase your taxes and spend your money to enrich themselves and get more power.

Just liberals? I personally love the conservative welfare queen geezers sitting in their rocking chairs fat and happy on social security, watching Fox News all day while constantly looking down their noses at the "lazy young generation that doesn't want to work" and are making the world go to pot.

So-called death panels just might have a positive side...
 
Liberals don't care about affordability. They are happy to increase your taxes and spend your money to enrich themselves and get more power.

LOL - it's always funny how people who proclaim to be capitalists and defend it the most understand so little about it and how it works.
 
Only because the conservatives (people, not the corrupt politicians) didn't understand what it was. The more they learn about it, the more people appreciate it.

No one understood what it was. That alone is suffieicent reason to be angry about how it passed. Pass it to know what's in it? Are you frkeaing kidding me!?

Also the polls I have seen trend towards the ACA becoming more unpopular over time. Do you have any polls showing the opposite? Care to share them?
 
Also the polls I have seen trend towards the ACA becoming more unpopular over time. Do you have any polls showing the opposite? Care to share them?

My understanding is the the polls of the package as a whole is becoming less popular, as if the provision to require the purchase of insurance, but that just about every other provision that affects daily lives has not dropped, or has risen. It's almost like people are reacting to the name more than the actual policies.
 
No one understood what it was. That alone is suffieicent reason to be angry about how it passed. Pass it to know what's in it? Are you frkeaing kidding me!?

Also the polls I have seen trend towards the ACA becoming more unpopular over time. Do you have any polls showing the opposite? Care to share them?

I understood what it was. I think everyone outside of the Fox News/Beck/Rush bubble understood it just fine.

One Brow already addressed the polls so I won't get into it.
 
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