Debunking the "losing is bad for culture" people. To win a title, you have to suck.

[green]

I read every word, Utah is not a FA destination so dont plan on signing a superstar, as far as trades go generally good players have some say as to what happens, so dont plan on getting a great player in a trade without giving up a ton if not all of our young core. Tha Lakers get great trades like that because well, they are the lakers.

Again, you are an idiot.

I NEVER SAID THE JAZZ SHOULD GO AFTER A FREE AGENT. I SAID THE EXACT OPPOSITE.

As far as a trade goes, if an owner can get rid of a player and save 70 million, I don't think the owner will give much thought into the player's wishes.

 

[The Midnight]

With the way Kanter has played the last week, I am believing you more and more every day.

You've learnt well my young padawan.

 

[green]

Yep, so why the hell would we need to tank, why is losing good? We have what we want.

Oh, my heck. I NEVER said the Jazz should tank.

I said the Jazz should turn the reins over to Kanter and Hayward. If they lose, it's not a big deal.

 

[jope]

good thing we have two #3 picks workin for us, since we need top 5 picks

 

[Hartsock]

Again, you are an idiot.

I NEVER SAID THE JAZZ SHOULD GO AFTER A FREE AGENT. I SAID THE EXACT OPPOSITE.

As far as a trade goes, if an owner can get rid of a player and save 70 million, I don't think the owner will give much thought into the player's wishes.

There are a lot of variables being thrown into this. Team A has very good player that will put them wayyyyyyyyyyy over the cap. Team B (utah) makes offer, wants to make good trade, not give up their whole team for said player. Teams C,D,E,F,G,H,I,J,K,L all offer trades also. Hopefully Utah is picked. Ok, great that would be awesome.

I guess my main complaint is with your title. What does it have to do with your point of we have good players lets make a trade?

 

[Hotdog]

Oh, my heck. I NEVER said the Jazz should tank.

I said the Jazz should turn the reins over to Kanter and Hayward. If they lose, it's not a big deal.

Lmao

Oh my god. So funny.


I told you. They'll argue no matter what. Its pointless. I don't think they are even real people. I think its just a computer spitting out standard responses. It must be the Jazz spin machine.

 

[green]

There are a lot of variables being thrown into this. Team A has very good player that will put them wayyyyyyyyyyy over the cap. Team B (utah) makes offer, wants to make good trade, not give up their whole team for said player. Teams C,D,E,F,G,H,I,J,K,L all offer trades also. Hopefully Utah is picked. Ok, great that would be awesome.

I guess my main complaint is with your title. What does it have to do with your point of we have good players lets make a trade?

Fair enough. Sorry for calling you an idiot.

The title is there because A LOT of people think if we miss the playoffs one year, we will turn into the Clippers of old, the new Minnesota Timberwolves.

The point was, we are on the right track, but the Jazz have fallen in love with FA's that last couple of years, and that needs to stop now, because we have our picks, we have our ability to make trades, and we are on a championship track.

The thing that will kill us is what killed us in the past: bad FA signings (AK, Ostertag). Both of those "extensions" prevented the Jazz from making "that" trade to put us over the top. We will NEVER get a FA to come here at a reasonable cost (ok, not never, but you can't count on that). We have to do it through the draft and trades, like most teams have done in the past.

Resigning Al/Millsap/others will do nothing to help us. They instantly become our AK/Ostertag again and we are screwed. Letting them walk keeps us on a title track. And yes, a title track ALWAYS involves a couple of bad seasons. The Jazz have tried to skip that step, but if they try to get too cute with Al/Millsap, then we are screwed.

So, the title is there to show that missing the playoffs a couple of years is a GOOD thing. You CANNOT win a title without LOSING seasons.

 

[mrob]

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but I don't see how it backs up the premise that we should be happy for missing the playoffs. By your own admission, we have a great set of players regardless of who is starting and who comes off the bench. At this point, if we miss the playoffs, it won't be by much. What does that buy us? Well, from what I can see it gives us a ridiculously small chance at a top 3 pick, but realistically it gives us a draft pick that is maybe one or two spots higher than if we lose in the first round of the playoffs. THAT'S IT.

Our expiring contracts are still expiring. Our young talent is still young and talented. Except maybe we got a little playoff experience. Maybe even we managed to keep it competitive and win some games.

In order for rooting for losing to really be effective, you have to be really bad. You have to be really bad for multiple years usually and then you STILL have to get lucky that the right pick in the right season comes to you.

That's not the Jazz. The Jazz are a good team. Even if they started all their young people, they are pretty decent team and are not going to lose at the rate that they would need to for this strategy to make sense.

I do agree that it's time to hand the team over to the youth movement. It's time for them to show who they can be. I still like a few of our veterans at the right price, but it's time to see who we can trade for or get as a FA to round out this team. I just don't think we have to intentionally lose or even be happy with losing. I don't think it buys us a damn thing at this point.

 

[green]

This is a faulty arguement due to the initial premise. There is a difference between losing and trying to lose or rooting for failure. If the Jazz try to win every game and lose every game then so be it. But rooting for failure? Pathetic. That is what is being thrown around here. Rooting for failure.

Be honest please.

Also, most people are "rooting" for failure because they want Al and Corbin gone. They are afraid that if the Jazz squeak into the playoffs, the Jazz will take their playoff bonus to the bank, and keep both players.

No one "wants" the Jazz to lose. They are just sick of the Jazz being satisfied with slightly better than average.

 

[Hartsock]

Fair enough. Sorry for calling you an idiot.

The title is there because A LOT of people think if we miss the playoffs one year, we will turn into the Clippers of old, the new Minnesota Timberwolves.

The point was, we are on the right track, but the Jazz have fallen in love with FA's that last couple of years, and that needs to stop now, because we have our picks, we have our ability to make trades, and we are on a championship track.

The thing that will kill us is what killed us in the past: bad FA signings (AK, Ostertag). Both of those "extensions" prevented the Jazz from making "that" trade to put us over the top. We will NEVER get a FA to come here at a reasonable cost (ok, not never, but you can't count on that). We have to do it through the draft and trades, like most teams have done in the past.

Resigning Al/Millsap/others will do nothing to help us. They instantly become our AK/Ostertag again and we are screwed. Letting them walk keeps us on a title track. And yes, a title track ALWAYS involves a couple of bad seasons. The Jazz have tried to skip that step, but if they try to get too cute with Al/Millsap, then we are screwed.

So, the title is there to show that missing the playoffs a couple of years is a GOOD thing. You CANNOT win a title without LOSING seasons.

I apologize also, I may have read your title and went into it with jaded opinions. The AK signing looked great at the time he was averaging like 17 6, 6 as a 21 year old. Who could have know he would regress as he got older. I would be beyond shocked if Jefferson is resigned, I would be kind of surprised of Millsap is resigned. I think they will both get stupid offers from dumb teams and will move on. Still not sure how all of your research really tied into the point you were trying to make but either way, Kanter and Favors need to play 30 + a game next year.

 

[green]

I agree. Let's tank and draft the next Greg Oden.

Again, you missed a HUGE POINT.

Losing does not make you a loser. Every team that has played in the NBA finals this century has had losing seasons. EVERY SINGLE ONE.

Poorly run teams make you a loser. Such as Minnesota, the old Clippers, Charlotte, New Orleans, etc.

The Jazz are a very well run team that drafts very well (Hayward, Burks, Kanter, Deron).

The Jazz don't need to "tank", BUT they need to let their potential STARS become that. And playing 15 mins while Al plays 35 is not becoming a star.

I never once said the Jazz should tank. I said the Jazz need to let Al and Paul walk, and if they lose, it's ok.

 

[green]

I want the Jazz to be competitive in every game and make the playoffs.

You will never win a title with this attitude.

 

[Hartsock]

I still stand by my point that fans need to take a step back and realize it is insane the salt lake city utah has a good team. Especially in the NBA where parity is not encouraged.

 

[green]

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but I don't see how it backs up the premise that we should be happy for missing the playoffs. By your own admission, we have a great set of players regardless of who is starting and who comes off the bench. At this point, if we miss the playoffs, it won't be by much. What does that buy us? Well, from what I can see it gives us a ridiculously small chance at a top 3 pick, but realistically it gives us a draft pick that is maybe one or two spots higher than if we lose in the first round of the playoffs. THAT'S IT.

I agree here. The Jazz wasted this year by playing Al, crappy vet PG, Foye and Marvin so much. Wasted the year. Because of what they have done, this year gives us NOTHING. We don't get a high draft pick, we don't know what Favors is, we don't know how much Kanter could have progressed with more minutes, Burks as well. This year is WASTED.

Our expiring contracts are still expiring. Our young talent is still young and talented. Except maybe we got a little playoff experience. Maybe even we managed to keep it competitive and win some games.

What good did winning games where Favors played 20 mins, Kanter played 12 and Burks received a DNP do for the future of this team? How did that get us closer to a title? If anything, it taught the kids that shooting every time you touched the ball and not playing defense is what the Jazz want. This year was a waste.

In order for rooting for losing to really be effective, you have to be really bad. You have to be really bad for multiple years usually and then you STILL have to get lucky that the right pick in the right season comes to you.

Bullcrap. The Jazz made moves to get Deron. They drafted Hayward, Kanter and Burks. It's not luck, it's drafting the right guy. Michael Jordan is not unlucky. He is dumb.

That's not the Jazz. The Jazz are a good team. Even if they started all their young people, they are pretty decent team and are not going to lose at the rate that they would need to for this strategy to make sense.

That's not what I said. I NEVER said they should try to LOSE. They don't need to lose a lot because the Jazz are such a well run organization. All I said was that people think benching Al means we want to lose. It's not true. If we bench Al and we suck, it's not a big deal. BUT, that probably won't happen.

I do agree that it's time to hand the team over to the youth movement. It's time for them to show who they can be. I still like a few of our veterans at the right price, but it's time to see who we can trade for or get as a FA to round out this team. I just don't think we have to intentionally lose or even be happy with losing. I don't think it buys us a damn thing at this point.

I agree with your first few sentences. I've been saying this for three pages. No one has EVER said your last two sentences. You added that in on your own to make you feel justified in your post.

 

[Stoked]

You are insinuating that Jazz fans want the Jazz to turn into the Clippers. We don't. We want to turn into Orlando/SA/OKC/NJ/every other team I listed. We want to win a title, and we are smart enough (unlike Jazz fans that think getting the 8th seed is fantastic) to know that being stuck in the middle isn't progress.

AND, most Jazz fans that talk about "failing" aren't talking about losing just to lose. Most Jazz fans are saying that they are sick of watching the wiley old vets lose to middle of the road teams and want to see the young guns play, and if that means losing, then so be it, we would have progressed further than sticking with Al for 38 mins and Kanter for 12.

Many members here are rooting for the Jazz to make the lottery. That means they are rooting for the Jazz to lose games. Please explaint o me how I got that wrong.

If the members here were rooting to win every game, which they are not - go look at the poll, and we lost then that is one thing but that is not what is happening here and everyone knows it.

 

[Hotdog]

Its too late to tank now anyways. We should have done it last year and then for the next couple years after. I think the ship has already sailed. It was a blown opportunity to stack this team. Now we just have to hope our core four will put us over the top and win a championship. All our hopes rest on them. I like our chances because I think they can be that good, but it would have been nice to add some insurance to that.

If we would have set the core four free last year they probably woyld have been bad, and we would have had a great pick. Plus we would have pushed Golden State down one. So potentially we could of had Damian Lillard and Harrison Barnes added to the squad. Instead we added Marvin, Foye and Mo. I guess we have that magical playoff experience of our core four riding the bench in the playoffs. Personally though, I would rather of had them get real experience playing an 82 game schedule with meaningful minutes.

Not to mention the fact that we probably could have stock piled more draft picks by selling off Al and Paul. Now we will lose them for nothing.

I just dont see how this...↓

Hayward
Burks
Favors
Kanter
+ riding the bench in the playoffs
+ riding the bench during the season

Is better than this..↓

Hayward
Burks
Kanter
Favors
+ 2 top ten picks last year
+ 82 game experience starting
+ picks obtained from trading Al and Paul
+ another top ten pick this year

 

[Stoked]

I tried to rep you green but can't.


There is no point in explaining this to certain people green. Either you get it, or you don't.

Either you root for failure or you don't.

 

[green]

I still stand by my point that fans need to take a step back and realize it is insane the salt lake city utah has a good team. Especially in the NBA where parity is not encouraged.

Holy Hell. Holy Hell.

I've been saying for three pages that the Jazz are a good team. I've also been saying they need to let Al and Millsap and other crappy FA's walk so they can be a GREAT team.

 

[Stoked]

Oh, my heck. I NEVER said the Jazz should tank.

I said the Jazz should turn the reins over to Kanter and Hayward. If they lose, it's not a big deal.

I agree with this. You may not have said id but many here are rooting for failure.

 

[green]

Many members here are rooting for the Jazz to make the lottery. That means they are rooting for the Jazz to lose games. Please explaint o me how I got that wrong.

If the members here were rooting to win every game, which they are not - go look at the poll, and we lost then that is one thing but that is not what is happening here and everyone knows it.

Read Hack's post. No one WANTS to lose. They are just smart enough to realize that EVERY SINGLE TEAM that has played in an NBA finals this century LOST OVER A SPAN OF YEARS.

You can't win a title with Al, Millsap and Corbin at the helm.

Turn the team over to the young guns, and let's see where this puppy goes.