green
Well-Known Member
Fair enough. I'm not rooting for failure, BUT I'd be okay with a year or two of it if we were actually going somewhere.
An Al/Millsap/Corbin team is going nowhere.
Debunking the "losing is bad for culture" people. To win a title, you have to suck.
- Thread starter green
- Start date
Fair enough. I'm not rooting for failure, BUT I'd be okay with a year or two of it if we were actually going somewhere.
An Al/Millsap/Corbin team is going nowhere.
Not the Spurs. They had one bad season.
Hartsock
Banned
I would rather kill myself.
On this we agree completely. Even turning it over to the youth I will root to make the playoffs. I actually think we have as good of a chance if not better of making the playoffs.
However see the following link.
https://jazzfanz.com/showthread.php?15043-At-what-point-will-you-start-to-cheer-for-the-Jazz-to-lose
Over 50% (17-15) want the Jazz or will conditionally want the Jazz to lose.
Hand this team over to The Five (now including Carroll) and let's kick some butt. GO JAZZ!! Win as many games as you can!
Superstardom doesn't happen until you have playoff success. Oden and Durant both got hype as rookies, but only one (at most) went on to super-stardom.
However, the answer to your question is Detroit.
If you want to evaluate the results of a "draft high" strategy, you can't just look at the successes; you also have to evaluate the failures. I don't want to root for the Utah Bobcats, Raptors, Warriors, or Timberwolves.
green
Well-Known Member
This post is perfect. You see how chasing FA's ruined this team (not even chasing FA's, but playing them). Had we ran this lineup last year:
Harris
Hayward
Howard
Favors
Al
moved Millsap for ANYTHING and had Kanter take the primary backup minutes, then we MIGHT have lost more games, but ended up with this team for this year:
Lilliard
Hayward
Barnes
Kanter
Favors
That team wins a title. BUT, because we can't LOSE and become the Timberwolves overnight, we stuck with Al and Millsap, who are and did take us nowhere, we lost out on a legit shot at Lilliard AND Barnes.
So, by going by the mantra, "either you root for failure or you don't" we lost out at a chance at the most talented young team in the history in the NBA.
And, I don't think this team is bad enough to get us a high enough pick, so enter Hack's post.
green
Well-Known Member
Yup. They did. They had GREAT drafts, and were lucky as well when it comes to Lopez's contract (ie, LHM didn't want to pay Parker to sit behind Stockton). They are the exception. As is Miami.
Hotdog
Well-Known Member
green
Well-Known Member
That poll is flawed. I voted that I wanted the Jazz to lose, but not because I want them to "tank" but because I want Al and Corbin gone, and losing is the only way in my eyes (and probably most people's eyes that voted for the lose option) that they are gone.
San Antonio, Boston, and LA disagree.
Usually, "span" means more than one.
Hotdog
Well-Known Member
We aren't a big market like la and boston. We can't attrack big names. Sa tanked for duncan
Reality disagrees with you.
What you don't see is that learning requires a good example as well as practice. What you don't see is that organizational culture carries over from year to year. When you allow other options than trying to win every single game as an organization, that seeps down.
For every 20-year-old that was giving the starting reins and blossomed, you can find three others that topped out doing that and never learned to develop their games.
SA had a bad year for injuries. However, Robinson and Rodman, tanking? Unlikely.
It is flawed but that is the argument being made by many.
green
Well-Known Member
Exactly. Kanter and Favors and Hayward and Burks will NEVER be superstars until THEY have playoff success. Not watching Al get swept by the Spurs. Thanks for making my point. You HAVE to play the young guns to have them develop into stars.
This is NOT true at all. I covered Detroit in my first post. They drafted one of their key players (Richard Hamilton #7), so they had a crappy season. They then pulled a SA with Ben Wallace (great draft pick later than usual). Then, after they had their core (which included Memo as a draft pick as well), they made a few key trades (Rasheed Wallace) and signed a solid vet (Billups).
They fit the mold of EVERY team not named LA, Miami or Dallas (the more recent version). They had a crappy season and drafted well. They drafted Hamilton and Wallace. We have drafted well as well (Kanter, Burks, Hayward). They then signed a good vet (Billups). We haven't done that. We have tried, but failed. Then they made that trade to put them over the top (Rasheed).
We need to let Al walk because he isn't that FA that will put us over the top and if resigned, he would be that contract that would prevent us from making that move to put us over the top. Millsap likely falls into this category as well and possibly Mo depending on their price tags.
Again, give the Jazz front office credit. They don't draft as poorly as those teams. Look at the Jazz's last four "high" picks: Deron, Hayward, Kanter, Burks. They have excelled in the draft.
The beginning and end of my argument is this:
The Jazz have done a wonderful job of putting us in line for a title (except for the last two years). Resigning Al kicks us off that line and into the line of the Bobcats, Raptors, Warriors, Timberwolves. Letting him walk keeps us on that line.
It's too bad that Jazz have wasted the last two years with Al. Imagine if the Jazz had gotten rid of Al last year and we ended up with the sixth pick and the GS pick. We would have this lineup this year:
Lilliard, Mo
Hayward, Burks
Barnes, Carroll
Millsap, whoever
Favors, Kanter
That team goes to the NBA finals in the next five years. Because we jackpotted around with Al so long, it will be harder for the Jazz to get that much talent so quickly.
So, like the title says, you have to suck to be great in the NBA.
green
Well-Known Member
SA sat Robinson to have a better shot at Duncan.
green
Well-Known Member
Why can't your coach do those things?
Reason #7435894980 to get rid of Corbin.
Orlando, Dallas, Cleveland, Det, NJ, Phi, and OKC didn't have that culture.
Sandy Braille
Banned
The smart move, or timeline to trade our bigs was to trade away Millsap and Jefferson a year ago, for picks or perhaps a decent player on an okay contract. Trading them this season never made sense, as we would have guaranteed gotten an albatross contract in return.
Lets think critically here. KOC is not an idiot. Im sure he was getting consistent offers for Millsap a season ago at the very least, and probably a couple of offers for Jefferson as well. A lot might say that he didn't trade them because he wanted to make the Millers money via the playoffs, and maintain our franchise's wining pedigree, but I think that it isn't as large of a factor as many are making it.
I think he noticed that the young bigs weren't ready, and that having them play behind high character guys while getting playoff-chase/playoff experience could really help their young guys take the next step in their development.
So far, our bigs have had massive progress in my opinion. And I attribute this a lot to the wealth of practices they have had against each other, along with the coaching staff.
Think about it this way: Derrick Favors has been practicing against probably one of the most unstoppable centres in the league, on the offensive end.
Al always gave Dwight Howard FITS. The only way teams can stop him is on the double team (Lakers, Heat, etc.)
Having Favors learning how to stop this dude is gonna make him extra-prepped against any center he might face over the course of his career.
Some food for thought.
Lets think critically here. KOC is not an idiot. Im sure he was getting consistent offers for Millsap a season ago at the very least, and probably a couple of offers for Jefferson as well. A lot might say that he didn't trade them because he wanted to make the Millers money via the playoffs, and maintain our franchise's wining pedigree, but I think that it isn't as large of a factor as many are making it.
I think he noticed that the young bigs weren't ready, and that having them play behind high character guys while getting playoff-chase/playoff experience could really help their young guys take the next step in their development.
So far, our bigs have had massive progress in my opinion. And I attribute this a lot to the wealth of practices they have had against each other, along with the coaching staff.
Think about it this way: Derrick Favors has been practicing against probably one of the most unstoppable centres in the league, on the offensive end.
Al always gave Dwight Howard FITS. The only way teams can stop him is on the double team (Lakers, Heat, etc.)
Having Favors learning how to stop this dude is gonna make him extra-prepped against any center he might face over the course of his career.
Some food for thought.
You don't get to claim non sequiturs as making your point.
Hamilton was what, fourth best on the title team (afters Billups and the Wallaces)? If they had not had Hamilton, they would have found someone else.
By the way, *all* teams have crappy seasons, whether they go to the NBA Finals or not. Every team in the playoffs did in a previous season. Every team not int he playoffs did that season. Every team, up and down the line. If have a crappy season is an immutable fact of NBA existence, than of course it happens to the teams in the Finals, as well.
Depends on price tags for all three, of course.
If Kanter can't beat out Jefferson for a starting spot next year or the year after, why would you think he could lead us to a title? Resigning Jefferson for the right price doesn't change our path any more than resigning Millsap or Maurice Williams for the right price.
You have no idea Lillard would have been available to us.
Further, do you realize your whole point is predicated on Jefferson being a much better player than Kanter last year, since playing Kanter more would have had us deep in the lottery? Are you saying it's bad policy to get and play the best players possible? If an organization refuses to get teh best players, don't you think that mindset carries down?