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War With N. Korea?

Gameface said:
It's seriously like you don't know anything about the situation on the Korean peninsula. N. Korea has conventional artillery in place that is within range of downtown Seoul. With this conventional artillery it is estimated that N. Korea could kill upwards of 100,000 people in Seoul, as well as causing massive damage to the city, in a matter of moments. No nukes required.

China and N. Korea are diplomatically very close. Maybe China does leave them blowing in the wind if TSHTF, but you can't know that. The only thing that keeps the people in N. Korea's beautiful communist utopia from starving to death are massive food shipments from China.

Plus there is the Korean war to use as a reference. In that war the N. Koreans were on the ropes and pushed all the way up against China. The U.S. overextended a little chasing the N. Korean army in full retreat right up until a massive flood of Chinese soldiers came south and pushed the U.S. clear back past where the current DMZ is.

N. Korea is a bad fit for U.S. nation building, mostly because S. Korea is wealthy and very technologically developed. It is one nation divided and I imagine if N. Korea were to be beaten into submission we'd just reunite the Koreas and let S. Korea figure it out. We already have a tense relationship with S. Korea. If we occupied N. Korea and tried to make it its own country they wouldn't stand for it.
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Even if no nukes were used China doesn't want that type of disruption so close to their border. Especially with the USA. So like you said, let history be your guide. If you still think that China is of their 50s mentality of isolation and extreme communism then be my guest. Otherwise , I think we need to come to grips that China has opened itself a lot and has changed since then. They no longer (just like the ruskies) are looking for a fight against the USA. Their leaders no longer need to talk tough against imperialistic powers to retain power. They are well established now. And economically doing well. They aren't going to be overthrown anytime soon. And shouldn't be. Slowly but surely China is becoming more and more democratic and western. Relations just from 20 years ago is a difference between night and day.

As far as not knowing whether N Korea is serious on their threats, again, let history be your guide. Every 2 years for the past 60 they have threatened S Korea and the USA in one form or another. Chillax folks.

Things have changed since WWII and the 50s. We no longer have generals wanting to nuke the entire Asian seaboard and China is no longer looking at a war with the USA. Nor would they rush to N koeea's aid this time (unless provoked by a MacArthur like surge into Chinese territory).
 
The Thriller said:
Even if no nukes were used China doesn't want that type of disruption so close to their border. Especially with the USA. So like you said, let history be your guide. If you still think that China is of their 50s mentality of isolation and extreme communism then be my guest. Otherwise , I think we need to come to grips that China has opened itself a lot and has changed since then. They no longer (just like the ruskies) are looking for a fight against the USA. Their leaders no longer need to talk tough against imperialistic powers to retain power. They are well established now. And economically doing well. They aren't going to be overthrown anytime soon. And shouldn't be. Slowly but surely China is becoming more and more democratic and western. Relations just from 20 years ago is a difference between night and day.

As far as not knowing whether N Korea is serious on their threats, again, let history be your guide. Every 2 years for the past 60 they have threatened S Korea and the USA in one form or another. Chillax folks.

Things have changed since WWII and the 50s. We no longer have generals wanting to nuke the entire Asian seaboard and China is no longer looking at a war with the USA. Nor would they rush to N koeea's aid this time (unless provoked by a MacArthur like surge into Chinese territory).
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China has never been like Russia. I don't think China is backwards and isolationist. I think China is emerging as a superpower that will likely eventually be more powerful than the U.S.. They like (need) our money right now, but that doesn't mean they like us, or our aggressive support of their regional adversaries (Taiwan, Japan, S. Korea). We're not in any sort of cold war with them, but if you think our two nations aren't constantly maneuvering to gain/maintain the upper hand over one another I think you should look again.

There are differences this time. Sure, may mean nothing, but the consequences if they do mean it or if we have been blind to a larger gathering storm could be extremely catastrophic.
 
This North Korean leader dude is a freaking idiot. Let's pretend they are really going to attack...

Everyday they say what they are doing and preparing for. Have they never heard that the best advantage is a surprise attack?
 
Beantown said:
This North Korean leader dude is a freaking idiot. Let's pretend they are really going to attack...

Everyday they say what they are doing and preparing for. Have they never heard that the best advantage is a surprise attack?
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Thats exactly what he wants you to think.
 
The Thriller said:
You don't think things have changed since the last time there was war in Korea? You honestly think China would still support N Korea in a war with the USA? Why? The soviets did too, think they'd support n Korea again?
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I think you are missing my point. Maybe you are right and they don't. it's possible, but what if they do?

Plan for the worst and hope for the best. To plan for war with N. Korea and not plan for involvement from China and Russia is extremely poor planning.

Reason I made this thread is that I find ththe posturing and the moves made, by all sides, interesting. No I do not think war will break out but that does not mean the situation should be ignored. If the military wasn't planning for war with N Korea, with support from China and Russia, I would be amazed and disappointed in them.
 
Scat said:
Who do you think we were really fighting in the Korean War?
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Things haven't changed since the 50s? Really?

Why are we defending Japan? They bombed Pearl Harbor! Why do we trade with Great Britain? They tried to take our guns away! If not for Paul revere, right Sarah?

Again, if you really think china would back N Korea again then you haven't been keeping up with the times. Of course, foxnews typically doesn't tell you the truth so I'm not surprised. When does mitt take office? Rove said that victory was guaranteed.

Enjoy:

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobi...missile-tests_n_2939512.html?utm_hp_ref=world

Not exactly the lovey dovey relationship paranoid conservatives living in the 50s are tryin to depict here. Time to get informed folks!

"North Korea's economic lifeline, China is showing signs of getting tough with an impoverished neighbor it has long supported with trade, aid and diplomatic protection for fear of setting off a collapse.
The moves to crimp, but not cut off trade with North Korea come as Beijing falls under increased scrutiny to enforce new U.N. sanctions passed after last month's nuclear test, Pyongyang's third. Targeted in the sanctions are the bank financing and bulk smuggling of cash that could assist North Korea's nuclear and missile programs as well as the luxury goods that sustain the ruling elite around leader Kim Jong Un. Pyongyang has reacted with fury and threatening rhetoric against South Korea and the U.S.
U.S. officials in Beijing for two days of talks to lobby China on enforcement said Friday that they were heartened by Chinese expressions of resolve. Spurring Beijing to cooperate, the U.S. officials said, is a concern that North Korean behavior had begun threatening China's interests in a region vital to its economic and security.
"There's reason to believe the Chinese are looking at the threat in a real way," Treasury Undersecretary David Cohen told reporters."
 
I doubt there will be war. China and US need each other too much for it now.

Wish China would just overthrow North Korea and put up a puppet government they can control better though.
 
Stoked said:
I think you are missing my point. Maybe you are right and they don't. it's possible, but what if they do?

Plan for the worst and hope for the best. To plan for war with N. Korea and not plan for involvement from China and Russia is extremely poor planning.

Reason I made this thread is that I find ththe posturing and the moves made, by all sides, interesting. No I do not think war will break out but that does not mean the situation should be ignored. If the military wasn't planning for war with N Korea, with support from China and Russia, I would be amazed and disappointed in them.
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Do you realize what an all out war with Russia, china, and n Korea would entail? Are you ok with reinstituting the draft? Taking the troops out of the ME? Increasing your income taxes between 50-70 percent? Importing millions of Mexicans to work as our cheap labor force? Massive cuts to domestic and social programs? And the potential of real WMDs being used not just fake *** ones that Bush lied about Iraq having? Remember now, as you said, it is best to plan and be prepared. Lets prepare now! Lets increase fed income taxes by 50 percent. Force Mitty to fork over 90 instead of 13 percent of his profits and see how excited this nation is for war.

It's time for America to wake up and use its armed forces the way they were intended for. No. More. Nation. Building.
 
Nate505 said:
I doubt there will be war. China and US need each other too much for it now.

Wish China would just overthrow North Korea and put up a puppet government they can control better though.
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Solid post. China wants war even less than we do. Sadly, some Americans are still living in the 50s here.

The reason why china hasn't installed another regime is the exact same reason why we should have never invaded Iraq! The new government might actually be worse than the old. In times past, the crazy N Koreans would huff and puff and threaten to blow everyone's house in. But they never did. It was all just talk. Insert a new regime, and it costs a ton of money. China doesn't want to be left with hat price tag. What happens if that regime is incapable of leading? Millions might flee to china and end up costing them more money. Perhaps weapons fall into the wrong hands? Perhaps the new regime actually steps up to the plate and becomes and economic rival?!

Puppet governments are expensive and rarely work out. For some damn reason we keep trying and never ever learn this lesson. Maybe we need another war with Korea or Iran? Apparently disasters known as Iraq and Afghanistan haven't taught us yet.

That's why we should just stay away and let things work out by themselves. Sure maybe ask china to impose a sanction or two. But by and large let those Asians figure out their stuff on their own. We have enough problems here to worry about.

And no, I don't think these most recent threats are real. He's just flexing his muscles and making a name for himself. Daddy died and the keys to the car were passed down. He's just merely showing his own people that he's just as pissed off at the world as his daddy and grand pappy. But he sure as hell doesn't want to see his car blown up. He understands that there is a line and won't dare cross it.
 
I'm no fan of puppet governments at all. But if that what North Korea is essentially for the Chinese now, I just wish there was one that was more behaved.

I tend to agree with you in general that this is just sabre rattling yet again from these jackasses.
 
The Thriller said:
Solid post. China wants war even less than we do. Sadly, some Americans are still living in the 50s here.

The reason why china hasn't installed another regime is the exact same reason why we should have never invaded Iraq! The new government might actually be worse than the old. In times past, the crazy N Koreans would huff and puff and threaten to blow everyone's house in. But they never did. It was all just talk. Insert a new regime, and it costs a ton of money. China doesn't want to be left with hat price tag. What happens if that regime is incapable of leading? Millions might flee to china and end up costing them more money. Perhaps weapons fall into the wrong hands? Perhaps the new regime actually steps up to the plate and becomes and economic rival?!

Puppet governments are expensive and rarely work out. For some damn reason we keep trying and never ever learn this lesson. Maybe we need another war with Korea or Iran? Apparently disasters known as Iraq and Afghanistan haven't taught us yet.

That's why we should just stay away and let things work out by themselves. Sure maybe ask china to impose a sanction or two. But by and large let those Asians figure out their stuff on their own. We have enough problems here to worry about.

And no, I don't think these most recent threats are real. He's just flexing his muscles and making a name for himself. Daddy died and the keys to the car were passed down. He's just merely showing his own people that he's just as pissed off at the world as his daddy and grand pappy. But he sure as hell doesn't want to see his car blown up. He understands that there is a line and won't dare cross it.
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I couldn't have written a better assessment of this myself.
 
The Thriller said:
Do you realize what an all out war with Russia, china, and n Korea would entail? Are you ok with reinstituting the draft? Taking the troops out of the ME? Increasing your income taxes between 50-70 percent? Importing millions of Mexicans to work as our cheap labor force? Massive cuts to domestic and social programs? And the potential of real WMDs being used not just fake *** ones that Bush lied about Iraq having? Remember now, as you said, it is best to plan and be prepared. Lets prepare now! Lets increase fed income taxes by 50 percent. Force Mitty to fork over 90 instead of 13 percent of his profits and see how excited this nation is for war.

It's time for America to wake up and use its armed forces the way they were intended for. No. More. Nation. Building.
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I'm sorry, I missed the part where I called for war. Part of the militarys job is to plan for the worst. War with North korea where China and Russia get involved is the worst.

As for some of you dumb jabs... 50-70% do you have evidence of that happening from any war or are you just making up number?

The draft would obviously come back

Yes I want our soldiers out of the middle east. They should not be there.

I am as against nation building as you are. I never mentioned it and you will find nowhere on Jazzfanz, or anywhere else for that matter, where I have stated an support for it. We should have crushed the afghan government and then left it that way.

If you want to talk to me then at least bring up crap that is relevant to me and what I have posted. Half your comments towards me are extremely off base. SO much so that I wonder if you even read my posts.

I also liked how you bashed Fox News than used the Huffington Post. They are ying/yang. Two sides of the same coin.
 
Stoked said:
I'm sorry, I missed the part where I called for war. Part of the militarys job is to plan for the worst. War with North korea where China and Russia get involved is the worst.

As for some of you dumb jabs... 50-70% do you have evidence of that happening from any war or are you just making up number?

The draft would obviously come back

Yes I want our soldiers out of the middle east. They should not be there.

I am as against nation building as you are. I never mentioned it and you will find nowhere on Jazzfanz, or anywhere else for that matter, where I have stated an support for it. We should have crushed the afghan government and then left it that way.

If you want to talk to me then at least bring up crap that is relevant to me and what I have posted. Half your comments towards me are extremely off base. SO much so that I wonder if you even read my posts.

I also liked how you bashed Fox News than used the Huffington Post. They are ying/yang. Two sides of the same coin.
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Nope. i didnt make anything up.

Do you know what the federal income tax rate was during WWII? During most of the Cold War? It might do you some good to look that up. If conservatives knew some of these lil tie bits from history maybe they wouldn't be so quick to begin wars or bitch about the tax rates of today.
 
The Thriller said:
Nope. i didnt make anything up.

Do you know what the federal income tax rate was during WWII? During most of the Cold War? It might do you some good to look that up. If conservatives knew some of these lil tie bits from history maybe they wouldn't be so quick to begin wars or bitch about the tax rates of today.
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You are the one that made the claim not me. Either back it up with facts or don't. I will not substantiate your claim for you.

I liked how you ingored how off base the rest of your comment was. Good to see.
 
We're all watching and waiting, hoping that once again N. Korea is just crying wolf. I haven't heard anyone get all gung ho to go to war with N. Korea. Conservatives, liberals, moderates, anarchists, socialists, seeing eye dog trainers, we all want N. Korea to stop threatening us and mind their own business.

Again, you're way off base thinking that there would be ANY U.S. nation building in N. Korea. First, if war did break out it wouldn't be "that kind" of war. The U.S. wouldn't be able to show off our toys while remaining completely unscathed. Hundreds of thousands of people in Seoul would DIE in the opening hours of any full-scale conflict. N. Korea doesn't have to do anything but pull the trigger to launch a massive barrage of conventional artillery at Seoul. I don't think you get that that is a real stumbling block here. The U.S. is not, I repeat, is not going to intentionally set things off and have that blood on our hands. We would not be able to stop it from happening. The opening act of a full-scale war on the Korean peninsula would most likely provide the single deadliest hour of warfare in human history.

So stop acting like this is a conservative plot to engage in the United State's favorite past time of nation building. Unfortunately (fortunately) this situation doesn't provide for that opportunity. N. Korea borders China. S. Korea has an understandable notion that N. Korea is just a separated part of their same country, their same people, with a common history and common foes. S. Korea is fully capable of taking on the nation building role in N. Korea if the regime falls. If they don't want the job the next in line would be China if the two Koreas remain separate.

I don't think Kim Jong Un intends for this thing to go hot. That's awesome. However, when big threats are being thrown around and tensions are high it is very possible that a slip-up or misinterpretation on the part of any of the half-dozen players in this could lead to an uncontrolled chain of events. If that happens it is likely hundreds of thousands if not millions of people will die. That's why this concerns me.

In situations like this I'm able to put the liberal vs conservative BS aside. I'm sorry you lack that ability, Thriller.
 
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The Thriller said:
Nope. i didnt make anything up.

Do you know what the federal income tax rate was during WWII? During most of the Cold War? It might do you some good to look that up. If conservatives knew some of these lil tie bits from history maybe they wouldn't be so quick to begin wars or bitch about the tax rates of today.
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Veering off-topic, but what percentage of taxpayers qualified for the top marginal rate then as compared to now? If liberals knew some of these lil tie bits from history maybe they wouldn't so boastfully parrot Rachel Maddow in screaming "91%!! 91%!!" Congrats, Thriller, on over-simplifying and sticking to your team's talking points. The good news for you is that most people listening to you are too dumb or lazy to question your "facts".
 
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