Racist, or just careful?

[Bronco70]

No. When the majority of support says that the writer can't be trusted to tell us what happened to her, then I don't think it's an indication of how wrong *I* am.

Perhaps. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/perhaps

That's not what anyone has said. As usual, you are reading what you want to read. I'm reading a collection of people who are open to the possibility that her story is not 100% accurate. But because it doesn't validate your indignance, you choose to believe that there could be no flaw or dramatization in her rendition of the events.

 

[moevillini]

The way I see it used, bigotry is something specific to a person, racism is something from the culture around them. 90% of the time, if you ask people who act like these guards whether they have a problem with or dislike Pakistanis, they'll tell you they don't. It sounds like there were three or four men there. I doubt all of them were anti-Pakistani.

I see it a bit differently. I see this as bigotry because the behavior that's described was directed towards one specific person.

 

[Siro]

Oh trust me I find lots of things weird here. But as I made my choice to come here and nobody forced me - I accept my new country as new home and do not try to change it to my liking. I do not ask for my "rights to practice my culture'' like some others who don't even bother to learn language or history of their new home.

You're not really responding to anything I'm saying. Listen, you have put on the chains of dogma. You're an atheist. Why volunteer to serve in the thought-prison that is ideology? Drop that burden and you'll feel better.

Try to understand what I'm saying. You are defining 'culture' (or race or religion or whatever you're using to prove your thesis) to mean anything the argument needs it to mean. I can point out to the fact that the Welsh and the English existed as one country without issue for a long time. But you'll simply reject the notion they're two different cultures. Scotland however, have recently expressed desire for independence. You can use that to show how multiculturalism does not work. You use the example of the Soviet block to show how multiculturalism could not last more than a few decades, but you'll only count those who wanted to go their own way as separate cultures. One can point out how the U.S. have existed for several hundred years as a multicultural entity, but you'll just raise the bar for multicultural collapse to "a little more than a few hundred years".

It is an argument where every concept is utterly meaningless apart from what you want it to mean in that part of the sentence. You can do better than that.

 

[MVP]

Please, go on. Why do you think they are bad examples?

Quebec in Canada is like isolated island which sooner or later will separate. 1995 referendum on separation was defeated by very narrow margin.
The referendum took place in Quebec on October 30, 1995, and the motion to decide whether Quebec should secede from Canada was defeated by a very narrow margin of 50.58% "No" to 49.42% "Yes".

Why Scotland, England, N.Ireland and Wales are competing in FIFA world cup as separate countries? If everything would be so good within G.Britain then Scotland would not look for referendum about separation as well:
The current Scottish Government has expressed its intention to hold an independence referendum on 18 September 2014.

China has its own issues with Tibet and Taiwan and India is known for Hindu-Muslim conflicts as well. Really not such a peacefull examples.

 

[Stoked]

So far, that's been your primary reason for not accepting this happened. Sure, you have gussied it up a bit, but that's what it's basically come down to.



What's the other reasonable possibility, that doesn't involve the doctor lying about it?

As has been said in this very thread you are seeing what you want to see. I have said no such thing despite your desire for it to be otherwise. I don't give a rats *** about her skin tone. It matters to you, not me. Think on that.

 

[Nate505]

Do you think those guards think of themselves as racists? Does that matter to the doctor?

1) No, though they could be secret members of the Ayran Brotherhood for all I know.

2) I have no idea. I'm not even sure what you're getting at with the question to be honest. Perhaps you could be more specific.

 

[One Brow]

I'm reading a collection of people who are open to the possibility that her story is not 100% accurate.

If the story is only 90% or 80% accurate, it's still fully worthy of my indignity, and yours as well. Saying that it may not be 100% accurate, and therefore you don't see any need to to be outraged, is a dodge that allows you to reassure yourself that there nothing to see and no need to change.

 

[One Brow]

I see it a bit differently. I see this as bigotry because the behavior that's described was directed towards one specific person.

We've talked about the definitions of bigot before; they referred to the thoughts and intentions of the actor, not the identity or number of the victim. Besides, as I said, I don't think all the guards here are bigoted, or even most of them. These would be men who regularly undertake protection of people of all sorts of skin colors, religions, etc., and I'm see no reason to doubt they are equally diligent in all their jobs. That's part of the point I've been making.

If it were a group of three women of Pakastani descent, would they have been treated more favorably? Five? Do you think the behavior was really directed at the doctor who works with poor people in Afghanistan, and their disdain for such people, as opposed to the dark-skinned woman?

 

[One Brow]

Quebec in Canada is like isolated island which sooner or later will separate. 1995 referendum on separation was defeated by very narrow margin.
The referendum took place in Quebec on October 30, 1995, and the motion to decide whether Quebec should secede from Canada was defeated by a very narrow margin of 50.58% "No" to 49.42% "Yes".

I'm not aware of any countries that are two thousand years old. So, I agree that, sooner or later, Canada will break up/be absorbed, just like every other country in the world will eventually break up or be absorbed. However, you can't use a universal truth to prove a particular cause. If every country ends, then saying multicultural countries will end does not assign the cause to multicuturalism.

Do you have any reason to say separation in Quebec is more popular now than during the last vote?

Why Scotland, England, N.Ireland and Wales are competing in FIFA world cup as separate countries? If everything would be so good within G.Britain then Scotland would not look for referendum about separation as well:
The current Scottish Government has expressed its intention to hold an independence referendum on 18 September 2014.

Why shouldn't they compete separately? How likely do you think the referendum is to pass?

China has its own issues with Tibet and Taiwan and India is known for Hindu-Muslim conflicts as well. Really not such a peacefull examples.

Tibet and China have gone back and forth for a while, but both Taiwan and the mainland agree Taiwan is in the same country as the rest of China, and China has many other ethnic subgroups besides Tibetan.

India has conflicts, but the bar you raised was separation. To my knowledge, there is no significant movement in any part of India for separation.

 

[One Brow]

As has been said in this very thread you are seeing what you want to see. I have said no such thing despite your desire for it to be otherwise. I don't give a rats *** about her skin tone. It matters to you, not me. Think on that.

Of curse you don't about her skin tone; you don't have to endure what that skin tone means in daily life. That you can afford to not care is part of having white privilege.

Don't worry, I never expected you to come up with a reasonable possibility.

 

[One Brow]

Thank you for thinking about the questions.

1) No, though they could be secret members of the Ayran Brotherhood for all I know.

I agree, it unlikely.

2) I have no idea. I'm not even sure what you're getting at with the question to be honest. Perhaps you could be more specific.

Of course. My point is that we all (myself included) are raised in, learn from, and participate in a culture where; with no hate, malice, ill will, or intention; we have learned to make quick judgments that have negative consequences for people with darker skin. When we make these judgments, even though we don't intend harm, we actually do harm. Because this culture is in all of our communities, it's not just white people that do this, these judgments are also made by blacks, Asians, Native Americans, etc. Because these judgments are automatic and almost reflexive, it's not enough to simply say. "I don't hate you. I think you are equal." If we want to live that rhetoric, we need to keep in mind that our first impressions will usually be wrong. We need to actively fight our "instincts".

 

[candrew]

No. When the majority of support says that the writer can't be trusted to tell us what happened to her, then I don't think it's an indication of how wrong *I* am.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqs9DYisSsg

 

[moevillini]

We've talked about the definitions of bigot before; they referred to the thoughts and intentions of the actor, not the identity or number of the victim. Besides, as I said, I don't think all the guards here are bigoted, or even most of them. These would be men who regularly undertake protection of people of all sorts of skin colors, religions, etc., and I'm see no reason to doubt they are equally diligent in all their jobs. That's part of the point I've been making.

exactly, the thoughts and intentions of the guards (the actors) is what I was thinking of. I would define them as bigoted actions.


You can type until you're blue in the fingers but you won't get me to call this specific incident an incident of racism. If that response means you lump me in with all the others whose responses you disdain, so be it. I'm not in entirely bad company if you put me in that mixed bag.

If it were a group of three women of Pakastani descent, would they have been treated more favorably? Five?

it wasn't - so why bring it up?

Do you think the behavior was really directed at the doctor who works with poor people in Afghanistan, and their disdain for such people, as opposed to the dark-skinned woman?

aren't they one and the same? or were there two people who were denied access?

 

[Stoked]

Of curse you don't about her skin tone; you don't have to endure what that skin tone means in daily life. That you can afford to not care is part of having white privilege.

Don't worry, I never expected you to come up with a reasonable possibility.

Nor did I expect anything but baseless raging about racism from you. The only reason that you care about her skin tone is because it lets you go on your misguided, false crusade. We all kow how being able to accuse people of that brightens your day.

 

[Gameface]

What I haven't really heard mentioned here is that she wanted into an area that she did not have a ticket to enter. She told the guard that she didn't have a ticket. Once she told him that it probably made it more difficult for him to let her in.

If my spouse had my car keys like her's did I too would be pretty desperate to get my keys back. I can understand she was upset. I would have asked for the guards supervisor or someone in charge of the event. Stop making it a conflict between you and the one guard. If you're desire is reasonable (hers was) someone else is likely to side with you and find a way to get your keys back.

I believe her story, but I can also see how her interpretation of events might not be universal.

There are times I don't get treated well. I chalk it up to being short, fat and ugly. I guess if I was middle eastern I would blame that instead.

 

[Stoked]

exactly, the thoughts and intentions of the guards (the actors) is what I was thinking of. I would define them as bigoted actions.


You can type until you're blue in the fingers but you won't get me to call this specific incident an incident of racism. If that response means you lump me in with all the others whose responses you disdain, so be it. I'm not in entirely bad company if you put me in that mixed bag.




it wasn't - so why bring it up?





aren't they one and the same? or were there two people who were denied access?

If it happened exactly as she said then yes the guards are bigoted/racist. If...

 

[MVP]

Why shouldn't they compete separately?

Well if their country is called Great Britain or United Kingdom maybe they should compete like that ( they do that in Olympics BTW). See, it is again about national pride. Scottish want to play under Scottish flag as it is more appealing and prideful for them. Thats why USSR never worked as all those little nations never liked being called USSR, they needed their national identity. It is again that crazy feeling of independence - you americans value it so much.

 

[Gameface]

There's nothing impossible about cultures coming together. It happens all the time. Get a grip, man.

 

[One Brow]

exactly, the thoughts and intentions of the guards (the actors) is what I was thinking of. I would define them as bigoted actions.


You can type until you're blue in the fingers but you won't get me to call this specific incident an incident of racism. If that response means you lump me in with all the others whose responses you disdain, so be it. I'm not in entirely bad company if you put me in that mixed bag.

I don't like lumping anyone in with a group.

Perhaps you can describe for me what a prototypical incident of racism would be, and why you think this even doesn't cover it.

it wasn't - so why bring it up?

I was responding to your comment that this was directed against "one specific person". It seems like an odd distinction to make.

aren't they one and the same? or were there two people who were denied access?

They are different aspects of the same "one specific person". To which aspect do you think the guards were likely reacting?

 

[One Brow]

No. When the majority of support says that the writer can't be trusted to tell us what happened to her, then I don't think it's an indication of how wrong *I* am.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqs9DYisSsg

So, knowledge that this writer can't be trusted is a common, and easy to verify, as knowledge of the star of Footloose?