Flat Tax and Tithing

[franklin]

I'd like to address poverty at the community, rather than national, level.

I am not a typical right-winger.. I care about those that are suffering. I also have a great disdain for the idea that we should all be equal. I believe in equal opportunity.. but not equalling out the results of individual efforts.

I've literally never heard a single American champion this, yet it's thrown around as some common fallacy of the left. By raise of hands, who believes in equality of outcome? Chirp, chirp.

So, sincere question.. how do you propose we have everyone have equal opportunities (as you've described above) without equalling out individual efforts/incomes? Where do you draw the line? Why stop at fruit and protein for breakfast? How is it equal opportunity for a job if my dad buys me a nice suit, buys me a nice car, gets me a great haircut, helps me with a professional resume, that resume includes an MBA from Georgetown........

Where is the line drawn?

My fear of stretching equality to far is removing the incentive of entreprenuers to have individual success. Maybe I'm wrong and the country would be fine.. but it frightens me.. and would whether I'm rich or poor. Btw, if I didn't have a job and I was told I could get one as long as I gave my blessing to the government to reward some random guy for starting a new company in my town... I'd be all for it.

Good point. I think we should keep the necessities up with modern times. Food, water, shelter in the agrarian times. Basic telephone on a welfare to work basis when one is necessary to get a job interview.

Besides, while you're worried about all these poor blowing their money, their spending is good for your companies.

I don't often agree with One Brow on social issues, but I do here. I am completely against a flat tax structure for this same reason. Now should the current tax rules be changed? Almost certainly. But a flat tax is not the answer.

So was the founding of America, but conservative groups want to re-write history.

I love Canada more and more with each passing day

Amen. I've given two minutes of thought to moving there. But you dip****s don't allow guns so it's not for me.

So which part entails the injustice, wealthy people being able to have things they want above and beyond their needs or poor people not being able to have much beyond what they need to live?

If wealthy people having things they want is not an injustice in and of itself then they don't deserve to be penalized for it. Also, if that's an injustice then there is no problem with the poor, they're living exactly the way a person ought to live.

If the problem is that poor people don't have things they want, the solution is not to take it away from someone else and give it to them.

Old British royalty would have made the exact same argument for their serfdom. Wealth redistribution is not only about addressing poverty. It is a necessary mechanism to ensure a vibrant capitalistic economy. The biggest penalty to the wealthy class would be not redistributing wealth and thus starving their customer bases. That's why they love social security so much: the money ends up in their pockets. You want to fix outrageous spending then make the wealthy and well connected pay for it. Then they'll lobby to fix the spending binge.

Colton, what should be changed, then? What is the "fair" amount that should be taxed for different levels? Why exactly is it harder for the $10k earner to pay 10% and how do you quantify that? Is it easier for the $100k earner to pay $30k in taxes than for the $70k earner to pay $1k?

We have democracy and elected officials to make these decisions. Why should Colton or anyone else be nailed to the cross over an opinion on what's fair? No one knows exactly what's fair, but the collection of society's opinions will still decide.

 

[green]

I find it interesting that "liberal" ideas have been described as "bankrupting" this country (and many others).

So using this logic, "conservative" ideas of military spending, 2 wars, tax cuts, and deregulation of the financial sector are the "saviors" to our country? Suddenly, the debt accumulated from this past decade is the result of food stamps, welfare programs, and pell grants NOT defense spending, 2 wars, tax cuts, and the deregulation of the private sector?

So in order to fix the USA, we should actually cut taxes even more, spend even more in defense, and maybe even invade another country or two?

Is there an economist (not employed by foxnews) that believes that this is the answer?

2 wars - Obama took us from 2 to 4.

Tax cuts??? This is where liberals are just wrong. Tax cuts don't cost the government anything, because it doesn't start off as their money.

Cutting taxes will definitely help, but that brings us back to the REAL problem:

SPENDING IS TOO HIGH.

Tax hikes DO NOTHING.

Until politicians (on both sides) are ready to make REAL, LARGE CUTS, then we are all just wasting our breath.

 

[franklin]

Also, it was CONSERVATIVES who came up with the Earned Income Tax Credit as a market based mechanism to reduce poverty and create welfare-to-work incentives.

The San Fransisco Fed put out a paper a year or so ago that's shown this program has been very effective in helping single mothers get back into the labor force.

Why in the hell are conservatives so damn dead set about ending something they created and having no income baseline that's tax free?

Yeah, it's not perfect and people will always game it; that's why we elect officials to keep the regulations up with the times.

But "regulation" causes allergies, apparently.

 

[green]

I love how every whines about healthcare and regulation, passes Obamacare then whines some more when healthcare costs go up.

Did you guys know that it is ok for Health Insurance companies to get together, decide what they will pay for/not pay for, then release similar plans, so we are stuck with the crap they give us?

Did you also know that if all the doctors banded together and decided to drop those plans from their Provider lists, they would be committing felonies?

The government/politicians are all liars and are not in it for us. Not a single one. Even Mike Lee ran on the whole tea part platform and anti-bailouts, then as soon as he wins, he short sells his home, in essence getting a bailout from the gov't.

The corruption is deep, and they convince us to argue about tax hikes/cuts, when they are irrelevant. No tax hike or cut will put a dent in our problems.

 

[Stoked]

I agree with the general themes of what PKM and Green are saying. There is enough revenue. Sending is out of control. It is managed horrendously and waste is obscene.

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

SPENDING IS TOO HIGH.

Tax hikes DO NOTHING.

Until politicians (on both sides) are ready to make REAL, LARGE CUTS, then we are all just wasting our breath.

Spending is probably too high.

Tax hikes don't do nothing, they increase the revenue stream coming into the federal government. That's a lot more than nothing. Deficits are products of both revenue and spending. That's an accounting fact. I disagree 100% that only spending matters. That to me is indicative more of ideology than sound, reasoned thinking.

I personally think that the gloom and doom over govn't spending/deficits is grossly overstated. The current situation does not, in my opinion, warrant European like austerity cuts. Recent economic data is showing that the deficit is coming down to much more reasonably levels due in large measure to increased revenue resulting from improved economy and tax increases. IMHO, the most important thing we can do to keep deficits reasonable is to get the economy growing again--and draconian budget cuts will probably tend to do the opposite.

While the US may not want to emulate Europe in terms of welfare state apparatus (common conservative talking point that I agree with to a point), nor do we want (I think) to emulate Europe in terms of austerity. There's a more balanced approach to tackle deficits that includes revenue enhancements, reasonable spending cuts, and policies that promote economic growth (and no I'm not referring to yet more reductions in upper marginal tax rates).

 

[One Brow]

Did you know that if you work in Philadelphia, but live outside of the city limits, there is an additional tax you have to pay?

I've had to pay income tax to a city where I worked, and then since where I lived had a higher income tax, I needed to get the difference paid as well. Is that what you mean? Are you saying residents get a break on their income tax (since they pay property taxes, I can see that)?

 

[One Brow]

2 wars - Obama took us from 2 to 4.

Where are those troops located? How many Americans died in those 2 you say Obama got us into?

 

[One Brow]

I love how every whines about healthcare and regulation, passes Obamacare then whines some more when healthcare costs go up.

That's what happens when you pass a conservatives's healthcare plan.

Did you guys know that it is ok for Health Insurance companies to get together, decide what they will pay for/not pay for, then release similar plans, so we are stuck with the crap they give us?

It's not that hard to get a copy of another company's plan, even if you are not cooperating.

Did you also know that if all the doctors banded together and decided to drop those plans from their Provider lists, they would be committing felonies?

Details?

 

[Stoked]

Where are those troops located? How many Americans died in those 2 you say Obama got us into?

Personally I see it all as 1 war. Just different theaters of battle. The actions in Jordan, Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Africa... all tie together.

 

[franklin]

Bernanke is scheduled to buy back twice as much new debt as we'll issue this year. The Federal deficit has already been going down while revenues are coming back up toward more normal levels. Spending cuts are in the pipeline and other programs set to expire. The debt problem has been largely addressed.



And One Brow, don't forget that Bill Clinton paved the way into Iraq.

 

[One Brow]

And One Brow, don't forget that Bill Clinton paved the way into Iraq.

Well, sometimes it's just not enough to bomb the heck out of Europeans; you gotta find some brown people to beat up as well.

 

[Stoked]

Bernanke is scheduled to buy back twice as much new debt as we'll issue this year. The Federal deficit has already been going down while revenues are coming back up toward more normal levels. Spending cuts are in the pipeline and other programs set to expire. The debt problem has been largely addressed.



And One Brow, don't forget that Bill Clinton paved the way into Iraq.

To me the debt is only a symptom of reckless and irresponsible government spending. That is the problem in my book.

 

[green]

I've had to pay income tax to a city where I worked, and then since where I lived had a higher income tax, I needed to get the difference paid as well. Is that what you mean? Are you saying residents get a break on their income tax (since they pay property taxes, I can see that)?

https://www.phila.gov/Revenue/businesses/taxes/Pages/WageTax.aspx

It's a tax Philly has passed for the privilege of using Philadelphia.

 

[green]

That's what happens when you pass a conservatives's healthcare plan.



It's not that hard to get a copy of another company's plan, even if you are not cooperating.



Details?

For example, Delta Dental, TDA, Dental Select and a few other dental insurance companies got together and decided that they were going to set the market prices for dental services in Washington State. They all had the same crown fees, filling fees, exam fees, etc, and they all dropped their prices together. Perfectly legal.

So, the dentists of Washington all got together and decided that they would all drop Delta Dental (Delta used to pay out the highest, but had the most hoops to jump through. Why jump through the extra hoops if the other 5 all pay the same, right?). Delta caught wind of this and sent out letters saying that if they dropped, they would go after them for anti-trust laws.

This is just one example where laws have completely screwed over the common man. Insurance companies can reduce their payouts, increase their fees, and profit out the yin-yang, and it all perfectly legal because anti-trust laws don't apply to them.

Fix the anti-trust laws (don't make anyone exempt, specifically unions and insurance companies and you would fix a LOT of healthcare problems. And probably actually get decent cable/satellite/internet tv service.

 

[MoreFeasts]

Insurance companies ... ... anti-trust laws don't apply to them.

I did not know that.

 

[green]

That's what happens when you pass a conservatives's healthcare plan.

WHAT?!?!?!?!?

Come on now, you are better than this. Name me 5 conservatives that voted for this healthcare plan.

This is a completely INVALID excuse, because democrats could have passed whatever they wanted to pass. This is 100% on them (did one Republican vote yes?). If Obamacare doesn't/isn't working, it is the LEFT'S fault. No one else's.

Like I said, you're better than that.

 

[One Brow]

Did you know that if you work in Philadelphia, but live outside of the city limits, there is an additional tax you have to pay?

I've had to pay income tax to a city where I worked, and then since where I lived had a higher income tax, I needed to get the difference paid as well. Is that what you mean? Are you saying residents get a break on their income tax (since they pay property taxes, I can see that)?

https://www.phila.gov/Revenue/businesses/taxes/Pages/WageTax.aspx

It's a tax Philly has passed for the privilege of using Philadelphia.

It's a standard income tax, not at all unique to Philadelphia. St. Louis has a similar provision. Most states do this, as well. There is no additional tax, you pay the same tax as Philadelphia residents. From your link:

All Philadelphia residents owe the City Wage Tax regardless of where they work. Non-residents who work in Philadelphia must also pay the Wage Tax.

 

[One Brow]

For example, Delta Dental, TDA, Dental Select and a few other dental insurance companies got together and decided that they were going to set the market prices for dental services in Washington State. They all had the same crown fees, filling fees, exam fees, etc, and they all dropped their prices together. Perfectly legal.

So, the dentists of Washington all got together and decided that they would all drop Delta Dental (Delta used to pay out the highest, but had the most hoops to jump through. Why jump through the extra hoops if the other 5 all pay the same, right?). Delta caught wind of this and sent out letters saying that if they dropped, they would go after them for anti-trust laws.

This is just one example where laws have completely screwed over the common man. Insurance companies can reduce their payouts, increase their fees, and profit out the yin-yang, and it all perfectly legal because anti-trust laws don't apply to them.

Fix the anti-trust laws (don't make anyone exempt, specifically unions and insurance companies and you would fix a LOT of healthcare problems. And probably actually get decent cable/satellite/internet tv service.

Delta threatened anti-trust litigation. That doesn't mean Delta had a case. Even if they did, you said "... they would be committing felonies." Delta did not, by what you wrote, threaten them with criminal complaints.

 

[Dr. Jones]

For all you numb nuts that didn't get my light-hearted jab...

I wasn't saying that people are literally championing an equal end result for all...... I was responding to one brow and other's responses about inequality.. and One Brow saying one kid gets protein and yogurt while another gets bread.. I asked where does that end? If you recall, I asked about interviewing.. who has the better suit, been better groomed, drives a nicer car, attended a 'better' college... it was a jab that if everything is truly equal, it necessitates an equal end... was a joke. Sort of.