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Let her play golf

So does the question become, do you want to screw one person or the entire field of LPGA golfers?

And that's a reasonable position to stake out, making the decision solely from a balance of harms perspective. The key to that piece of rationale, however, is at least acknowledging that there is some cost to an individual in making that decision.

I think that would be defensible in the same way that some athletes who are amputees might have an unfair advantage were they to use prosthetic limbs that were more efficient that human limbs (like the South African runner who used "blade legs" a few years ago) and it might be defensible to remove them from general competition as well.

Now a lot of the usual asswipes on this board aren't even engaging in the individual vs. the group analysis, they're staking out the ground of saying that she's cheating, the issue is cut and dry and obvious, or in Scat's case implying that he's only grudgingly accepting that transsexuals exist in the first place and should have the right to change sex to begin with. Those are the people I'm ashamed to share a message board and even a species with.
 
in Scat's case implying that he's only grudgingly accepting that transsexuals exist in the first place and should have the right to change sex to begin with. Those are the people I'm ashamed to share a message board and even a species with.

There's nothing "grudgingly" about my position. I freely accept that transsexuals exist and that they have the right to change what ever they want. Just don't expect society to accommodate you in your every need to feel normal.

As far as you feeling ashamed to share the same scientific name with me? Who cares? LOL
 
I freely accept that transsexuals exist and that they have the right to change what ever they want.

Except for that in person you wouldn't refer to her as Katie.

Marcus said:
Just for the record I use the name "Katie" with great reluctance. It's only because people have the option of hiding behind whatever name they choose on the internet that I honor this.

So they can change everything they want but their name apparently? What's more personal than that?
 
Except for that in person you wouldn't refer to her as Katie.

I don't suspect that I'll ever meet her but if I did I would be respectful and call her by her name of choice. I've continually used the name Katie when conversing on these boards. I actually have a harder time referring to her as her than I do using the name Katie.
 
I don't suspect that I'll ever meet her but if I did I would be respectful and call her by her name of choice. I've continually used the name Katie when conversing on these boards. I actually have a harder time referring to her as her than I do using the name Katie.

Since you're taking back that comment I'll take back that I'm embarassed to be of the same species as you.

:grouphug:
 
It's not a matter of screwing one person vs. screwing a whole group. He's a man that wants to play against women. He's not being screwed by not being allowed to do so any more than any other man.
 
Why should I care what's "fair and equitable"? I believe in freedom of assembly. Adults can decide inclusion and exclusion on there own, and those who don't make the cut can run along or go sulking in the corner. Are you gonna make the jocks in high school invite the tuba team over for sleepovers next?
 
Why should I care what's "fair and equitable"? I believe in freedom of assembly. Adults can decide inclusion and exclusion on there own, and those who don't make the cut can run along or go sulking in the corner.

So presumably you also would support the repeal of the public accomdations portion of the Civl Rights Act.
 
you really think these are similar?

Franklin's statement refers to the rights of assembly and the ability to exclude others for any sort of arbitrary reason (i.e. football players and tuba kids).

The Public Accomodations section of the Civil Rights Act is one of the bases for forcing private businesses to serve people of different races and the like. Absent that law, it would be permissible for a private business owner to exclude a black person from his shop on exactly the basis elucidated by franklin.

So yes, that is a responsive point.

Good luck when bar exam results come out.
 
This story is making the rounds now. Here's an article from ABC News. They also have a video along with it on their site.

Transgender Golfer Lana Lawless Sues LPGA for Right to Compete
Lawsuit Highlights Debate About Transgender Athletes and Competitive Sports

A transgendered golfer has filed suit against the LPGA -- the Ladies Professional Golf Association -- saying the organization's rules that a player must be "female at birth" are outdated and discriminatory.

Lana Lawless, 57, said she was denied membership in the national women's golf governing body even though she is a post-operative transsexual and considered a woman by her home state of California.

She filed suit against the LPGA this week in U.S. District Court in San Francisco as well as against the Long Drivers of America, which has also prohibited her from competing in their golf tournaments.

"I'm not physically as strong as I used to be," Lawless said. "I'm well under the top end of testosterone levels for genetically-born females."

The suit also seeks an injunction to bar the LGPA and LDA from holding tournaments and qualifying events in California as long as they continue to deny post-operative transgender competitors.

"How I feel is, 'Here we go again,'" said Lawless, a retired police officer who says she has lost a commercial golf sponsor because she has been prevented from competing.

According to court documents, Lawless won the LDA's women's long drive championship in 2008, when the organization had no set rule on transgendered athletes. But a change in policy to mirror the LGPA's "female at birth" requirement both disqualified her from future competition, the lawsuit charges, and made her ineligible to reap the benefits from her 2008 win.

"I'm the only professional women's golfer in the United States. I'm the champion. They changed the rule," she said. "How can you say it's not directed at me?"

Lawless' lawsuit also names as defendants several sponsors of the LDA tournaments, including CVS, Dick's Sporting Goods and Re/Max.

Mike Scanlan, LGPA's public relations manager, confirmed the tour's "female at birth" policy but declined to comment on why it was in place when other sports associations, including the International Olympic Committee, allow transgendered athletes to compete with stipulations.

"We haven't been formally served with the lawsuit so we can't comment at this time," Scanlan said. "Our policy is what it is currently, and beyond that we don't have much to say."

Lawless underwent gender reassignment surgery in September 2005.

The vice president of the LDA referred comment to the organization's attorney, who did not return messages seeking comment.

Competition Rules Vary for Transgender Athletes

Legal protection for transgender athletes varies in the U.S.

Though Olympic-sanctioned sports such as track and field and swimming abide by the International Olympic Committee's policy on allowing male-to-female transgendered athletes, other domestic athletic governing bodies aren't held to the same rules.

The IOC ruled in 2004 that transsexual male-to-female athletes would be allowed to compete two years after gender reassignment surgery, provided they have undergone hormone therapy. Each instance is handled on a case-by-case basis.

"The issue is the education around transgender athletes in general," said Nancy Hogshead-Makar, senior director of advocacy for the Women's Sports Foundation. "There's a disconnect between what athletes are under the impression of, versus what the medical community has concluded."

Hogshead-Makar, a retired gold-medal winning Olympic swimmer, said the belief that transgender female competitors would have an advantage in strength is still common among athletes

"But the medical experts say no," she said, "that there is a wide variance among women between height and strength."

The Women's Sports Foundation's position on transgender athletes is parallel to that of the IOC.

"If indeed they don't have this unfair advantage over people who were born female, then of course they should be allowed to compete," Hogshead-Makar said.

Lawless pointed to the sole transsexual golfer on the European Ladies Tour, whose ranking is not anywhere near the top.

"By past practice ... she should be the Tiger Woods of ladies golf," Lawless said.

At the college level, the NCAA has a policy that transgendered students are allowed to compete as whatever gender is listed on their state-issued documents, such as driver's licenses and voter registrations.

The issue of gender identity in sports made headlines last year, when South African women's runner Caster Semenya was forced to undergo testing after allegations surfaced that she had an intersex condition that gave her an unfair advantage over other female runners.

Earlier this year she was cleared by the International Association of Athletic Federations to compete in the women's division, though the results of the testing were not released for privacy reasons.

Hogshead-Makar said the closest comparison to the Lawless lawsuit might be the legal battle waged in 1970s by tennis player Renee Richards. Born a man, Richards sued for the right to play competitive tennis as a woman after being denied entry into the U.S. Open. The New York Supreme Court later ruled in her favor.

Link
 
Franklin's statement refers to the rights of assembly and the ability to exclude others for any sort of arbitrary reason (i.e. football players and tuba kids).

The Public Accomodations section of the Civil Rights Act is one of the bases for forcing private businesses to serve people of different races and the like. Absent that law, it would be permissible for a private business owner to exclude a black person from his shop on exactly the basis elucidated by franklin.

So yes, that is a responsive point.

Good luck when bar exam results come out.

the lpga isn't a private business excluding customers based on race. its a league for women excluding a man. exclusion is the only similarity, and a blanket ban on exclusion i dont think has been passed into law.
 
the lpga isn't a private business excluding customers based on race. its a league for women excluding a man. exclusion is the only similarity, and a blanket ban on exclusion i dont think has been passed into law.

SHE is not a man. Why do you insist on calling her a man?
 
the lpga isn't a private business excluding customers based on race. its a league for women excluding a man. exclusion is the only similarity, and a blanket ban on exclusion i dont think has been passed into law.

1) You'll note that my criticism was to the way that franklin got to his conclusion. It was based on a broad principle. I was pointing out that principle, broadly applied as he stated, would logically also lead to advocating for the repeal of the public accomodations provisions of the civil rights act. You seem to be having difficulty distinguishing between arguing against the form of argument as opposed to the argument applied to the particular facts at hand.

2) You've assumed the conclusion. The entire point is that she possesses some characteristics of a female and in the jurisdiction of the suit is legally a female but also possesses some physical characteristics of a male.

3) The LPGA is surely a business and it is excluding a person based on a pretty narrow definition of physical sex. Both sex and race are protected classes. The similarities are greater than you acknowledge.

I'm not certain if the LPGA constitutes a public accomodation because I have no idea what the requirements for entry into an LPGA tournament are. I believe the PGA has specific competitive requirements and those might be used to distinguish them from public accomodations.

In any event, franklin's statement is exactly the argument used by business owners who challenged public accomodations laws saying that they had the right to choose their customers under policies of free association. My statement merely goes to the point that the principle he's arguing for has limits under the law and isn't the slam dunk he believes.

Obviously Renee Richards wouldn't have won her suit if it was that easy.
 
it's not an arbitrary decision. The lpga was created (assuming) in part to give women a place where they can compete on an even playing field and show off their talent in relation to other women. letting a man play hurts that way more than a black guy eating at a restaurant hurts the restaurants ability to be a restaurant.

Tiger hasn't been too great lately. Should he be able to lob off his dong and dominate the lpga?
 
I have yet to see one good reason from you on why you continue to refer to her as a man. It seems like a transphobic bias to me.
 
I have yet to see one good reason from you on why you continue to refer to her as a man. It seems like a transphobic bias to me.

I have yet to see one good reason for you to refer to him as a woman. I'm not scared of people who do this. I have nothing personal against you or this guy. I just don't think you, him, me or Kicky should be able to play in the lpga. Well, maybe Kicky.
 
I have yet to see one good reason for you to refer to him as a woman. I'm not scared of people who do this. I have nothing personal against you or this guy. I just don't think you, him, me or Kicky should be able to play in the lpga. Well, maybe Kicky.

It is a personal insult to me for you to continue to refer to her as a man. I've made myself clear on this position many times already. It is highly offensive to refer to a trans person using the pronouns that do not match the gender they identify with. In this case she has had the surgery, and the state recognizes her as a woman. By law she is a woman. It is a lack of respect to continue to use the wrong pronouns.
 
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