Hooker, Up and In

[LogGrad98]

Watching these too I sure wish Tag had been less lazy. If he had focused on the game, he had the tools to be a top center.

And was Malone the best running big man in the game? Who could run the floor better than him if not?

 

[davidbenoit]

Are you not aware of his stint in WCW?

Never new he did it in a game situation.

 

[LogGrad98]

I don't know that I would call it underrated. Most professional skills coaches that I have seen still use Stockton as an example of the right way to do a crossover. Anyone that is a student of the game knows that Stockton had an unbelievable cross over.

I meant under-rated by the popular media more than anything else. Any time they put together the top cross-over players they use Tim Hardaway and AI and now Deron, but you never see Stockton on the list. But his cross-over was possibly more deadly than any of theirs if you look what he did, and the accolades he amassed, using it as one of his many weapons.

 

[LogGrad98]

One thing that stands out to me in those is how Karl always had position right on the block. He had every move he wanted because he always was where he wanted to be when he got the ball. Seems like we have had a hard time getting the ball to the bigs on the block for.............. well since Stockton left and they stopped setting that great cross screen. Stock set such good picks down there and the ball was always ready to be passed in when Karl got right were he wanted. I miss watching good basketball like that.

See and I can't help but wonder how much of this spacing is due to the new ways of defense. With illegal defense it was easy to spread the floor, just send your other players as far away from the block as you could. Think of all the times Stockton dumped the ball into Malone, then waved everyone else outside the 3 pt line. If their guy dropped off them too much there was Sloan waving his arm, and Horny shooting techs. This allowed a big like Malone a lot more space to operate. In the NBA today your 3 point shooters are so much more critical to the game. Back then having a couple guys who could hit the 3 regularly was cool, because if their man sagged off them to help Malone then they paid for it with an open 3. Now they need the 3 pt shooters to be much more efficient so the help just plain cannot leave them. This is almost the only way to generate spacing anymore. This is one reason why players like Ronnie Brewer, for all his energy hustle and decent defense, just is not a good complementary player. They have to respect the outside shot or the whole team can just sag down and clog up the middle on a Malone-type player, then cuts and screens are far less effective as the space is so limited to begin with.

 

[franklin]

Where would Karl be without illegal defense rules? The other players could make cuts and get to the basket more easily because their defenders had to float the middle ground - help out on Karl or defend their own guy. I always wondered what a zone defense or a modified zone or just throwing 2 guys at Karl whenever they felt like it would have done to him, how he would have handled it. Without Jerry constantly calling for that illegal D, hell I bet we got a tech per game on that call alone, how different would Malone's career have been?

This is Malone we are talking about, one of the best at developing counterpunches for every new tactic defenders threw at him. He would have adjusted, then hand carve a wooden spoon out of the nearest redwood to cram down your throat for doubting him.

BTW, inferior Jefferson without any of Malone's grit, passing, supporting cast, or anything pretty much disprove this. Put Optimus Prime Malone in last year and he's still a 30 ppg playa.

 

[franklin]

^doubter. Malone would have held the yearly ppg record with 40+.

 

[zbone]

Where would Karl be without illegal defense rules? The other players could make cuts and get to the basket more easily because their defenders had to float the middle ground - help out on Karl or defend their own guy. I always wondered what a zone defense or a modified zone or just throwing 2 guys at Karl whenever they felt like it would have done to him, how he would have handled it. Without Jerry constantly calling for that illegal D, hell I bet we got a tech per game on that call alone, how different would Malone's career have been?

He would simply travel more to FT line to make up for that. Hell, he would live there in Durant's proportions.

 

[LogGrad98]

This is Malone we are talking about, one of the best at developing counterpunches for every new tactic defenders threw at him. He would have adjusted, then hand carve a wooden spoon out of the nearest redwood to cram down your throat for doubting him.

BTW, inferior Jefferson without any of Malone's grit, passing, supporting cast, or anything pretty much disprove this. Put Optimus Prime Malone in last year and he's still a 30 ppg playa.

I think he would have adjusted, as would have Stockton of course. They would still have been on top, but it would have been interesting to see how they got there with the different rules.

Although, thinking about this, and remembering how interesting it was to watch our team go from getting 2-3 illegal defense calls per game to 3-4 extra shot clock violations per game, I wonder what the counter punch would have been. With flopping at an all-time high Malone would have fouled out about every game. The first bump and they hit the deck and he gets an offensive called on him. Malone's big strength, in my opinion, was that he had a finesse game that doesn't get talked about very much. A soft long-range shot for a big, and soft hands around the basket. Comfortable floating one in from 8 feet with either hand when he needed to, as much as dunking so hard he broke bones in people sitting on the bench. But that is what the new rules has done, that part of a player's game has to be more well-developed. We don't see many pure power players anymore really.

 

[franklin]

I think he would have adjusted, as would have Stockton of course. They would still have been on top, but it would have been interesting to see how they got there with the different rules.

The easiest answer is the solution you proposed: better 3 point shooters.

Getting more into mechanics, Jazz couldn't take advantage of the simplest plays because Jefferson is a face up player with zero vision. Back to basket would have opened up so much. That simple triangle screen for semi-corner three was too much for Al. Forget about weak side cuts. PLEASE Kanter...

 

[candrew]

Where would Karl be without illegal defense rules? The other players could make cuts and get to the basket more easily because their defenders had to float the middle ground - help out on Karl or defend their own guy. I always wondered what a zone defense or a modified zone or just throwing 2 guys at Karl whenever they felt like it would have done to him, how he would have handled it. Without Jerry constantly calling for that illegal D, hell I bet we got a tech per game on that call alone, how different would Malone's career have been?

I'm pretty sure The NBA started allowing zone defense in 2001 - while not in their prime, Stockton/Malone had to deal with it for a couple of years. I distinctly remember Malone turning the ball over at a very high rate in the beginning of the 2001/02 season; but he eventually made the adjustment.

 

[LogGrad98]

I'm pretty sure The NBA started allowing zone defense in 2001 - while not in their prime, Stockton/Malone had to deal with it for a couple of years. I distinctly remember Malone turning the ball over at a very high rate in the beginning of the 2001/02 season; but he eventually made the adjustment.

It took Jerry a few years to adjust to the new rules. I even remember him signaling an illegal D in one game, then realizing that it didn't exist any more and waving at the ref in disgust and sitting back down. It had a real impact on his coaching, as he had been using the exact same formula for so long that he didn't have backup plans for that kind of change. It affect Malone and Stockton too, but we didn't really get to see how they adjusted as it was only in play for a couple of years as they were winding down their careers. I think with the new hand-check rules Stockton would be making a lot of PGs look like total fools, even more than he did anyway.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

^doubter. Malone would have held the yearly ppg record with 40+.

Did you forget to switch to your alt before making this comment?

 

[jazzfan1971]

I'd like to see Kanter adopt that reverse pivot fade away.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Never in your life will you see a better 2-man game than we got the privilege to see for 20 years. Or really anything like Stockton and Malone.

 

[The Thriller]

Anyone who alwatches these cannot help but think about Kanter.

Favors, gets all the ink. Yet he isn't the key to our future success. At his best, favors might be Tyson chandler. Which is nice but not key. Kanter on the other hand... Has the potential to be something special. That post presence we never had with Jefferson, sort of had with Boozer (but not really), and definitely had under Malone.

We need kanter to be that go to guy in the post.

 

[Hotdog]

Never in your life will you see a better 2-man game than we got the privilege to see for 20 years. Or really anything like Stockton and Malone.

Sad thing is we should see more of it. The pick and roll isn't that hard to execute. I watch today's players and 80% of them have no idea how to set a pick, let a lone execute the roll or the pass. There are players that can like Deron, CP3, and Parker, but there aren't many. It also makes me question coaching around the league because how damn hard should it be to teach it.

This is precisely why the Spurs can take average athletic personnel and dominate with it. Because they are about the only team who know how to run it.

Michael Jordan ruined the game. Nothing but a bunch of wanna be hero ballers now that wanna be like him.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Sad thing is we should see more of it. The pick and roll isn't that hard to execute.

It's not just the pick-and-roll, though. It's that Malone could play every role you could ask of a big. He could facilitate and score from about anywhere inside the free throw line unbelievably well. Stockton knew that in order to keep the offense balanced that he couldn't take many shots and that he HAD to convert them in order to keep defenses honest and he did so at an unbelievable rate as well. His and Karl's respective skill-sets meshed perfectly all the way through, and that came with natural chemistry, but also years together.

 

[green]

A couple of thoughts:

The SA court was UUUUGGGGGGLLLLLLLIIIIIII.
Did Karl only run against Sac?
I hated when Malone went to LA, but now I feel bad he got hurt. A part of me wishes Karl and Payton could have won a title. Those two were amazing players that should have rings (especially Karl. He stayed here).
It amazing how little NBA players try. Probably 10,000 of Karl's points were be a use the other team wasn't trying. I don't know why players today don't try to take advantage of that. If Favors would run, he would probably score 8 pts a game off layups.

 

[carolinajazz]

How about a little off season nostalgia. This guy has a killer tribute series to Malone up on youtube in celebration of Karl's 50th.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2edAvSLD5U8

.....I think that clip actually shows EVERY ONE of Malones "dribbles" in his entire career! Generally, he'd get the ball down so low from John and did the unthinkable!......went straight up WITHOUT dribbling, got fouled and made the 3 point play! I'd love to find the clip where Karl's being interviewed and was asked about changing teams and having to deal with another point guard! Malone says something to the effect: "I'm not leaving Stockton! The other knucklehead point guards in this league have no idea whether they are going to throw the ball in the stands or swallow it! I know exactly what John is going to do and he does it every time!"

 

[silesian]

Love for GP (sorry, a bit off topic)

. A part of me wishes Karl and Payton could have won a title. .

Payton got a ring with the Heat in 2006 (granted, in a supporting role, but he did hit some key shots)

I loved the Payton Stockton match-up. Two amazing, fierce, competitors, going at each others throats. And having the utmost respect for each other. I hope GP picks Stock to introduce him when he is inducted into the hall of fame (in fact, I'd be surprised if he did not give Stock this honor). Best defensive PG of all time, not even close (Kidd #2, maybe?). Top 5 overall PG.