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Will there be American invasion in Syria?

mellow said:
This is not about chemical weapons. This is about economics, it always is.

FWIW, driving home yesterday I was thinking about all the politicking going on in the USA. I had to laugh at the role reversal and dogged loyalty of it all. The president, who won a Nobel Prize for peace is about to start his second war, this one because chemical weapons killed indiscriminatley--but he isn't concerned that the drone strikes he orders also kill and maim indriscrimently, or that the missles he fires into Syria will kill and destroy indiscriminatley as well.

The republican talking heads who all lined up behind the Bush wars are falling over themselves to criticize OBama.

The Demo talking heads who opposed the Bush wars are now defending their guy and saying that this time it is different--its a noble war.

There is no sense of right or wrong only right vs left and it doesn't matter who is in charge the US spreads war around the world.

Meanwhile the President supports the Syrian rebels 'rights' to reform the regime through violence, while at the same time he is authorizing billions to spy on Americans who might not agree with him.

And the Christian Right is so excited to see a possible Armegeddon but mad as hell that it is democrat starting it.

If the consequences were not so grave I would be laughing my head off at the idiocy of it all.
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I disagree with some of your adjetives but isn't politics grand?
 
mellow said:
And every enemy of the USA who may want to instaigate a battle or a showdown between the USA and Russia, or Iran. Or every 'friend' of the USA who wanted to escalate the Syrian issue but needed to push the USA to become involved.

It was an open invitation to the whole world, and one of the stupidist things I've ever seen.
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Didn't you know that it was not the President's red line but the worlds?

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2013/sep/05/context-president-obama-syria-red-line/
 
The world can't set a red line for **** because all other first world countries are too yellow to intervene even when they should. It's a shame that the U.S. blundered so hard on Iraq (and it was obvious to anyone paying any actual attention to the details BEFORE it all went down), because Kosovo was a noble cause. I guess the world will need another Rwanda before anyone wants to do anything about mass warfare specifically targeted against civilians.
 
Libya seemed to be a pretty successful engagement but I am not very learned as to why everyone thought something should be done there. My guess is that the social landscape in Libya isn't factious so making the decision to depose was easier but I really don't know.

I think air strikes in Syria are a good idea and I'm not generally a fan of half-measures. But all things considered, I think blacking Assad's eye is better than murdering him or doing nothing.

I also think that asking for congressional approval after such a strong statement of intent looks bad for Obama (if you're a macho ****head and care more about "flip-flopping" than you do about weighing critical factors and approaching situations with some sense of caution), but this would be the first time in how long that the president has (actually) lobbied the American people for military engagement in... how long? I am not exactly a historian, but I can't think of a time that that's happened off of the top of my head. I don't count lobbying for dictatorial powers (The War Powers Act IIRC) as such.

For the record, I am shooting from the hip quite a bit here.
 
NUMBERICA said:
Libya seemed to be a pretty successful engagement but I am not very learned as to why everyone thought something should be done there. My guess is that the social landscape in Libya isn't factious so making the decision to depose was easier but I really don't know.

I think air strikes in Syria are a good idea and I'm not generally a fan of half-measures. But all things considered, I think blacking Assad's eye is better than murdering him or doing nothing.

I also think that asking for congressional approval after such a strong statement of intent looks bad for Obama (if you're a macho ****head and care more about "flip-flopping" than you do about weighing critical factors and approaching situations with some sense of caution), but this would be the first time in how long that the president has (actually) lobbied the American people for military engagement in... how long? I am not exactly a historian, but I can't think of a time that that's happened off of the top of my head. I don't count lobbying for dictatorial powers (The War Powers Act IIRC) as such.

For the record, I am shooting from the hip quite a bit here.
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You are spot on with the factions nature of the Syria rebelion. It stretches from democracy minded rebels to terrorists. As for other countries being to Yellow. Israel hits anyone near them if they feel the need. They have hit Syria three times already. Not to mention Palestine and that little war with Hezbollah in Lebanon.

Britian bellied up on us.

France has a new aggressive stance. Mali and now Syria.

As for Rawanda, the world still does not really care. Take a look at Africa. It is still all going on. Sudan, Ethiopia that Kony warlord guy.
 
Stoked said:
You are spot on with the factions nature of the Syria rebelion. It stretches from democracy minded rebels to terrorists. As for other countries being to Yellow. Israel hits anyone near them if they feel the need. They have hit Syria three times already. Not to mention Palestine and that little war with Hezbollah in Lebanon.

Britian bellied up on us.

France has a new aggressive stance. Mali and now Syria.

As for Rawanda, the world still does not really care. Take a look at Africa. It is still all going on. Sudan, Ethiopia that Kony warlord guy.
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Well, Koney was an inspired attempt from a morally bankrupt liar to bilk money out of bleeding hearts that forget that google exists. That worked. But yeah, Liberia, Congo, Ghana, Somalia (a failed attempt), Sudan...
 
NUMBERICA said:
Well, Koney was an inspired attempt from a morally bankrupt liar to bilk money out of bleeding hearts that forget that google exists. That worked. But yeah, Liberia, Congo, Ghana, Somalia (a failed attempt), Sudan...
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Pretty much. So the whole moral obligation argument I hear from DC is shallow and hypocritical at best.
 
NUMBERICA said:
I think air strikes in Syria are a good idea and I'm not generally a fan of half-measures. But all things considered, I think blacking Assad's eye is better than murdering him or doing nothing.
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How does anyone know that Assad did this? Strategically it makes no sense to use chemical weapons against his own people. Particularly after Obama's red line was drawn.

Assad is fighting a 'civil' war inside his own country. He needs to maintain as much popular support as possible or deal a heavy handed crushing defeat to the rebels. A single chemical attack on a bunch of women and children does nothing to stop the fighting--it only enrages the rebels and instills them with more resolve. He also risks having his supporters turn on him. but neither of those compares to USA red-line.

For Assad to do this he had recognize that the USA would act. So am I supposed to believe that he chose to make a chemical attack, while the UN chemical experts were in town knowing that it would not stop the rebels and would certainly escalate his little war to include the Worlds super power?

The only reasonable scenario for him doing this would be him wanting to engage the USA in a conflict he cannot win. No, I don't believe Assad did this, but as an old hermit once said: "They didn't. But we are meant to think they did."
 
Stoked said:
Pretty much. So the whole moral obligation argument I hear from DC is shallow and hypocritical at best.
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They haven't shied away that "interests" in the region aren't being ignored which is honest and would be a consideration for anyone. But yeah. I guess maybe when any of those countries are a threat to destabilizing a region where a massive chunk of your energy comes from then things might happen.
 
mellow said:
How does anyone know that Assad did this? Strategically it makes no sense to use chemical weapons against his own people. Particularly after Obama's red line was drawn.

Assad is fighting a 'civil' war inside his own country. He needs to maintain as much popular support as possible or deal a heavy handed crushing defeat to the rebels. A single chemical attack on a bunch of women and children does nothing to stop the fighting--it only enrages the rebels and instills them with more resolve. He also risks having his supporters turn on him. but neither of those compares to USA red-line.

For Assad to do this he had recognize that the USA would act. So am I supposed to believe that he chose to make a chemical attack, while the UN chemical experts were in town knowing that it would not stop the rebels and would certainly escalate his little war to include the Worlds super power?

The only reasonable scenario for him doing this would be him wanting to engage the USA in a conflict he cannot win. No, I don't believe Assad did this, but as an old hermit once said: "They didn't. But we are meant to think they did."
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RuPaul 2012 gold standard 9/11 TRUTH infowars.com
 
NUMBERICA said:
They haven't shied away that "interests" in the region aren't being ignored which is honest and would be a consideration for anyone. But yeah. I guess maybe when any of those countries are a threat to destabilizing a region where a massive chunk of your energy comes from then things might happen.
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It is about energy and control. The Middle East is important. Africa is not.
 
Stoked said:
It is about energy and control. The Middle East is important. Africa is not.
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And the Middle East has nukes. And the U.S. has doggedly allied itself with the poison of the region. And they can't win no matter what they do, it seems.

Maybe the U.S. should turn its focus to controlling Africa instead. There are plenty of resources in Congo, no nukes, no Israel, and no cousin-religions whose origins can be traced to destroying the origins of the predominant religious traditions of our own nation. <--- Me being cynically advisory.
 
Not sure that genocidal war criminals are who we want to support.

The prisoners, seven in all, were captured Syrian soldiers. Five were trussed, their backs marked with red welts. They kept their faces pressed to the dirt as the rebels’ commander recited a bitter revolutionary verse.

“For fifty years, they are companions to corruption,” he said. “We swear to the Lord of the Throne, that this is our oath: We will take revenge.”

The moment the poem ended, the commander, known as “the Uncle,” fired a bullet into the back of the first prisoner’s head. His gunmen followed suit, promptly killing all the men at their feet.
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But, they said, one of his tactics has been to promise to his fighters what he calls “the extermination” of Alawites — the minority Islamic sect to which the Assad family belongs, and which Mr. Issa blames for Syria’s suffering.
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https://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/05/...se-dilemma-in-west.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2&hp&
 
NUMBERICA said:
And the Middle East has nukes. And the U.S. has doggedly allied itself with the poison of the region. And they can't win no matter what they do, it seems.

Maybe the U.S. should turn its focus to controlling Africa instead. There are plenty of resources in Congo, no nukes, no Israel, and no cousin-religions whose origins can be traced to destroying the origins of the predominant religious traditions of our own nation. <--- Me being cynically advisory.
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I'd prefer if we turned our attention to our own house and then our friends. Leave those that want to be left alone, alone.
 
For Trout and Mellow:

4 – The 21 August attack can only have been ordered and lead by the regime

The combined attack lead on August 21 corresponds to a classical tactical pattern (artillery preparation, then ground offensive) and the use of chemical agents was integrated in a tactical maneuver consistent, on a military level, with the Syrian armed forces’ doctrine. Reliable intelligence from several of our partners mentions specific preparations in the days just before August 21.

Conventional air and artillery bombardments took place between 3 and 4 am on the Ghouta East. In parallel, the locations of Zamalka, Kafr Batna and Ayn Tarma were reached by chemical attacks. At 6 am, a ground offensive was launched by the regime against thesecities.

Several sources mention the use of artillery rockets, different from those of the best known ammunition stock (missiles and bombs). Our technical analyses confirm that the restof rockets observed on that occasion, as for some previous and local operations, allow the use
of chemical agents.

The regime then lead important air and ground strikes on the attacked areas. It made efforts to delay the arrival of inspectors over several days. These elements confirm a clearwillingness to destroy any evidence a posteriori. Furthermore, the military set off fires, aiming apparently at purifying the atmosphere thanks to the air movement generated by the intense heat.

Our intelligence confirms that the regime feared a wider attack from the opposition on Damascus at that moment. Our assessment is that the
regime was trying by this attack to loosen the grip and to secure sites strategic to control of the capital. For example, the area of
Moadamiyé is located close to the Mezzeh military airfield, which houses the barracks of the Air Force intelligence.

Anyhow it is clear, by examining the targets of the attack, than only the regime itself could have targeted positions that were so strategic for the opposition.

Finally, we consider that the Syrian opposition does not have the capacity to lead an operation of that size with chemical agents. No group belonging to the Syrian opposition has, at this stage, the capacity to stock and use these agents, and even more in proportions
comparable to what was used on the night of August,21 in Damascus. These groups have
neither the experience, nor the know-how to implement them, particularly through vectors as those that were used during the August 21 attack.
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If that's not damning enough then consider the high level Syrian Army phone calls that were intercepted and recorded, and Syria's known use of chemical weapons over the last two years.



https://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/IMG/pdf/Syrian_Chemical_Programme.pdf
 
Stoked said:
https://www.globalpost.com/dispatch...s-backing-possible-us-military-intervention-0

Add Japan to that number.

https://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2013/09/02/2013090201249.html

Looks like S Korea is onboard in some fashion

Germany is on board pending UN, NATO or EU approval.

S Africa is against a US strike on Syria.
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https://www.realclearpolitics.com/v...ine_countries_support_us_action_in_syria.html

So that is:
Albania
Australia
Canada
France
Turkey
Israel
Japan
South Korea
Kosovo
Denmark
Romania
Saudi Arabia
United Arab Emirates
 
franklin said:
Not sure that genocidal war criminals are who we want to support.



https://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/05/...se-dilemma-in-west.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2&hp&
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Let alone doing this kind of inhumane treatment to Assad troops they also doing it to the civilians and 12-15 year old kids. There is no living human being on this Earth crueler than this mercenaries. Theyre worshiping money and power more than their so-called god. Theyre creating troubles wherever they go for the sake of imperialists.
 
Stoked said:
Neither do the majority in America.
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Ironically, neither majority will be able to stop Obama's nonsense.

But if Erdoğan pulls us into the war and if more death news begin to come(syrian moil already cost us more than 100 people), it will be a hell of an uproar in Turkey and it won't stop until Erdoğan resign. I know I will be on the streets this time.
 
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