Joe Bagadonuts
Well-Known Member
Good idea!
Game Thread: Utah @ BYU, Sat. 9/21 8:15pm MT, ESPN2
- Thread starter leftyjace
- Start date
leftyjace
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Preseason Strength of Schedule Rankings:
#13 - Utah
#49 - BYU
Current Strength of Schedule Rankings:
#5 - Utah
#30 - BYU
I hardly think that comparing current records is a fair comparison.
I also think that rankings do and should have merit, but that they can be somewhat misleading, especially when you consider the damage a loss can do.
Therefore, the only thing I think counts when it comes to determining which team is consistently better is when they actually play each other.
Scoreboard.
#13 - Utah
#49 - BYU
Current Strength of Schedule Rankings:
#5 - Utah
#30 - BYU
I hardly think that comparing current records is a fair comparison.
I also think that rankings do and should have merit, but that they can be somewhat misleading, especially when you consider the damage a loss can do.
Therefore, the only thing I think counts when it comes to determining which team is consistently better is when they actually play each other.
Scoreboard.
Glad to hear that you are firmly convinced Utah is worse than Oregon State, UCLA, Arizona, and USC.
leftyjace
Well-Known Member
Hey, until we can beat a team consistently, we shouldn't say we are the better program. I'm not saying we're a worse program. I just can't say we're better.
Oregon State - 5 games since 2007 - Utah has only won 2 of those. Nope, can't say we're the better program.
UCLA - 4 games since 2007 - Utah has won 2 of those, but is only 10-2 overall in their history against UCLA. Same thing.
Arizona - 4 games since 2005 - 2 and 2. Same thing. (I could have padded this by going 1 year further back. Overall, Utah is 20-17-2 against Arizona, but I don't think that's consistent enough.)
USC - 3 games since 2011 - all losses. Last win against them was 2001 in the Las Vegas Bowl. Same thing.
OK, so what's your point, Colton?? Facts are facts. And so are these facts:
9 out of the last 12
14 out of the last 21
54-31-4 overall
Yep, I'd say Utah is consistently better than BYU, save for the LaVell Edwards years.
I mean, come on. Anyone can pull an existing situational argument out of their butt to try to justify one team being better than another with anything but an actual win. You want one? Here's one. Here, I'll use an arbitrary computational rankings site (https://www.compughterratings.com/home) which should make you happy, because it ranks BYU 23 and Utah 45. Fair?
Average Rank of teams Won and Lost against this season (current rankings). FCS schools are disregarded because they don't show up in the rankings.
Utah Wins: Utah State (79), Weber State (N/A), BYU (23), Stanford (5) - Average Ranking: 35.67
Utah Losses: Oregon State (30), UCLA (28), Arizona (32), USC (33) - Average Ranking: 30.75
BYU Wins: Texas (25), Middle Tennessee (N/A), Utah State (79), Georgia Tech (38), Houston (35), Boise State (57) - Average Ranking: 46.8
BYU Losses: Virginia (89), Utah (45) - Average Ranking: 67
So let's see... that's very interesting.
Yes, BYU has won a string of games - against seriously inferior opponents. Good hell. The average rank of Utah losses is still only 2/3's of the average rank of BYU wins. The average rank of Utah wins is STILL about only 75% of the average rank of BYU wins.
This basically proves to me that BYU's ranking is overrated. It also proves to me that BYU fans may think their program is so improved, and so much better... but STILL wouldn't beat Utah right now.
OK, look... my point being, when you look at anything other than actual head to head results you can always find a way to slice it so that it looks like it's in your favor.
BYU fans can hypothesize all they want. It doesn't mean a hill of beans.
Scoreboard.
leftyjace said:
Can't argue with that. Utah has definitely had BYU's number.
But perhaps you missed the part (several pages ago, probably) where I specifically said I wasn't arguing that BYU is better than Utah. If you read through the last several pages, you'll see that I consistently have NOT been putting Utah down. Instead, it's actually been the Ute fans that have consistently been putting BYU down.
And if they are going to put BYU down, I think it is fun to look at the two teams' overall seasons, and point out that as of right now every single poll/rating system thinks BYU is better than Utah.
https://masseyratings.com/cf/compare.htm
95 ratings/polls think BYU is better than Utah
0 ratings/polls think Utah is better than BYU
Well, many/most of those rating systems take strength of schedule into account, so I'm not sure why we should trust your own analysis over that of the other 95.
leftyjace
Well-Known Member
Fair enough. Although, I would argue that Duck and Thriller (in the Utah/USC thread) have been consistently putting Utah down, and comparing them to BYU.
See my previous post.
Because I'm awesome, duh. See my previous post.
A lot of my recent posts in this thread have been talking smack, so let me take a moment for a serious post in order to make my own opinion more clear:
1) Utah was clearly better than BYU back on week 4.
2) Although Utah was clearly better, the difference between the two teams was not as much as many of the Ute fans seem to believe. After all, BYU outscored Utah 13-7 in the second half, and did have a chance to tie it up on the last play of the game. If Hill had connected on, say, even 50% of his passes instead of 38% of his passes, the game could easily have gone the other way.
3) Obviously teams get better, or sometimes worse, as the season progresses. But as of last week, I probably would have still said that Utah was the better team. I alluded to that in one of my posts in this thread.
4) After BYU's convincing win over Boise State and Utah's convincing loss to USC--two teams that were very close in the compilation rankings here, https://masseyratings.com/cf/compare.htm, the situation is more muddled. I put the two teams as neck and neck right now. BYU has clearly improved substantially since week 4. With Utah, it's not so clear.
5) If BYU beats Wisconsin in their next game, and Utah loses to Arizona State,* then I think the situation becomes much more clear--BYU will be rightfully considered the better team.** If BYU loses and Utah wins, then things go the other way--I'll consider the Utes to be the better team. If they both lose or both win, then the situation stays muddled in my opinion.
Fair enough?
* Odd, I just realized that both teams have a bye week at the same time. Interesting.
** a top 25 team, to be specific
leftyjace
Well-Known Member
I will never understand this. Oh, I see your points, and I recognize that they're valid. I guess I don't understand why it's even a point of discussion.
Why does it matter if a team gets better or worse over the course of the season, when it all comes down to who won and who lost when we actually played? Why even use that type of comparison logic when looking at Utah vs. BYU? Is that some sort of way to make yourself feel better about the losses? Year? After Year? After Year?
"Well, we lost, but we're better NOW. Which means we SHOULD have won. Because, you know, if we played RIGHT NOW, we'd WIN. Which means WE'RE BETTER THAN UTAH!!!!!"
Do you even realize how ridiculous that sounds?
We've beat you at the beginning of the season. We've beat you at the end of the season. We've beat you when we were ranked. We've beat you when you were ranked. We've beat you recently. We've beat you over history.
I guess I just don't understand the futility.
Duck Rodgers
Well-Known Member
Who cares about Utah at this point other than to mock them a bit? You either play for a national championship or you play to be ranked at the end of the year so you can carry that ranking over to next year and have a good chance to make some noise. There's no other goal in college football. BYU unfortunately will not be in the national championship, but could very well end up in the top 15, top 10. Great. Utah game is irrelevant.
Let the Utes say they are better than BYU all they want. Let them pretend that being mediocre in the Pac 12 is better than being...say...Fresno State this year like they were all claiming it would be. We all knew it was bollocks then and laughed. And we are free to laugh at them at now. A lot.
Let the Utes say they are better than BYU all they want. Let them pretend that being mediocre in the Pac 12 is better than being...say...Fresno State this year like they were all claiming it would be. We all knew it was bollocks then and laughed. And we are free to laugh at them at now. A lot.
Well, among other things, bowl games and final season rankings are all based upon the season as a total, not a particular game. You don't care about those? Plus I'm sure prospective recruits care how a team is ranked at the end of the year, even if you yourself are not.
And I suspect it DOES matter to you, otherwise why did you get so defensive about the 95-0 rankings/polls putting BYU ahead of Utah?
leftyjace
Well-Known Member
Oh, this is rich.
leftyjace
Well-Known Member
I was speaking within the context of the rivalry, which I thought we were discussing.
Sure, I care about how we look at the end of the season. But as far as recruiting goes... the tide has turned, amigo.
I didn't get defensive about the 95 polls thing... not sure where you got that from? I just raised the polls thing as a way to further my argument that you could slice and dice things away from the final score all you want to make yourself feel better about your team.
But that ultimately...
Scoreboard.
Get it?
fishonjazz
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Jazz beat the miami heat last year so therefore jazz were better than the heat last year obviously
♪alt13
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Big Al got max money for a reason man. King james and company just got lucky that we didn't want to make the playoffs last year
fishonjazz
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Big Al got max money for a reason man. King james and company just got lucky that we didn't want to make the playoffs last year
Lol
♪alt13
Well-Known Member
Yeah and Byu would be doing awesome in a big conference. Oh wait you weren't invited and you got whooped by those lowly Utes. The end of BYU football is just around the corner and you know it, haha.
Duck Rodgers
Well-Known Member
Did you not see their schedule ranking above? Their SoS is a lot higher than a lot of big conference teams and they have two strong teams left. They are playing those level of games already. That's what you guys don't get. How many big conferences teams are there? 60 something I think. So if BYU's schedule ends up 20 or 30? What does that tell us? That they should want to be Kansas or Utah? Hell no.
Who cares one way or the other though? I like seeing BYU in the NCAA tourney. I like seeing BYU ranked in football consistently with a shot to break through every once in awhile. However they can best play the system to get to those goals is the best route.
UGLI baby
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Comparing a 12 game college football season to an 82 game NBA season.
Zoobs gonna Zoob.
fishonjazz
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Appalachian state homeboy
My point was that upsets happen (not saying utah beating byu was an upset) so just because team A beats team B that does not ALWAYS mean the better team won.
Sometimes teams play better or worse than thier actual ability
It seems that lefty thinks that the only criteria for determining who is the better TODAY is by looking at what happened in a game over a month ago.
I don't know who would win if they played tomorrow but I do not think that the utes and cougars are the exact same teams as they were back when they played each other. (Injuries to murphy and wilson hurt the utes a lot)