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Hayward & Jazz - not close to agreement (Hayward leaving 4/40 on the table)

b_line said:
Landry Fields? He is no where near as good as Hayward. I agree he is not the next Bird or Pippen, but let's be realistic about this. He is better than Dunleavy Jr, and way better than Landry Fields. Danny Green is not a real comparison either. Green had one good playoff series, not much else.

Comparing him to these guys is just as bad as the guys comparing him to Bird and Pippen. Nobody on this board thinks Hayward is a max player. All they are saying is that he is a good player, and they want the Jazz to keep him, even if it costs a little bit more than what online message board posters think it should...
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When you say Hayward is "way better" what are you basing that on? Actual production on the floor? A particular skill set? Emotion? All the guys I listed are jack of all trades type players but aren't at an elite level at any particular skillset (although Danny Green is one of the elite 3 point shooters in the league). None can be considered first options on their team, all are big, fairly athletic wing players. I forgot to throw in Wilson Chandler as another comparable player. All of these guys earn in the 4-6 Million range so, $10M/year is more than fair in my eyes for Hayward.
 
Max I would go at this stage is 4yrs/$44m. Otherwise, let him prove that he can be a #1, lead the team, and be an All Star, if he wants more. Let him become a RFA.
 
akirac73 said:
When you say Hayward is "way better" what are you basing that on? Actual production on the floor? A particular skill set? Emotion? All the guys I listed are jack of all trades type players but aren't at an elite level at any particular skillset (although Danny Green is one of the elite 3 point shooters in the league). None can be considered first options on their team, all are big, fairly athletic wing players. I forgot to throw in Wilson Chandler as another comparable player. All of these guys earn in the 4-6 Million range so, $10M/year is more than fair in my eyes for Hayward.
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Landry Fields peaked as a rookie, and averaged less than 5 ppg last year. He sucks. This comp, even to Danny Green and Dunleavy, and especially Hayward, is laughable.

Danny Green is not really comparable as far as overall production, and has only averaged over 10 ppg once in a four year career. Hayward has been consistently better throughout his career.

Dunleavy was actually pretty damn good in his career, and has fallen off since a back injury, iirc. If Hayward turns out as good as Dunleavy Jr. in his best years, we have a good player. Hayward will likely be a better passer than Dunleavy Jr was, and about even in most other areas. I think Hayward will have a better career though, because he is off to a better start than Dunleavy.
 
Thee jazz fan said:
George's firs playoff experience was very bad the year before as well
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In their 2nd year in the league at the same age neither did well. 11-12 year

PG wasn't good: FG 39% 3P 27% in 33 mpg.

But Hayward's was D-league bad: FG 18% 3P .08% in 31 mpg.
 
colton said:
I'm in the same ballpark as you, although I'd take the numbers down slightly for a "good deal". I'd say he's a good deal at 10.

What some of the "pay Hayward!" people don't seem to get is how critical it is to properly price players, especially given the new CBA which turns a previously soft cap into a much harder one. If you make a $1-2 mill/year error on, say, four players, that's enough of a difference to pay for a legit all star (say $18 mill/year) instead of a borderline all star (say $12 mill/year). And that is probably the difference between the Jazz fighting to make the playoffs, and being a contender for championships.
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Well put. Will rep when I get on a comp.
 
Jeffrey32 said:
Max I would go at this stage is 4yrs/$44m. Otherwise, let him prove that he can be a #1, lead the team, and be an All Star, if he wants more. Let him become a RFA.
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don't know if this is exactly possible but something like 4/46m(13,12,11,10) sounds like a safe move to me.
 
bigmike said:
I think G-Time will be a Jazzman beyond this season regardless, but I really hope the deal gets done before the deadline regardless. I think it would be good for both parties. I'd offer him 4 yr/$52M with a player option for a 5th year. I think he would accept that now and would likely command more on an inflated RFA deal next offseason, meaning the organization would likely save $ by getting the deal done now.
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That is a horrible contract. Hayward is not worth $13 million a year. Sorry I would rather let him go on the market and if he can get that amount then see ya!!!

Did everyone forget that the Jazz do not have to overpay for Hayward? The Jazz have two 2014 picks in a very deep draft. They can draft his replacement.
 
Some of you have already forgotten the AK lesson, do NOT overpay for a good player. AK's contract crippled the Jazz for years. He was not worth what he got. The Jazz paid for his future potential which never really materialized. I want Hayward on the team but at the right price. Again how is Hayward that much better than Millsap?
 
I'd offer him 5 mill/year just to offend him and then send the photo of him in a USA jersey to every GM in the league to whet their appetites, and then trade his punk ***.
 
b_line said:
Landry Fields peaked as a rookie, and averaged less than 5 ppg last year. He sucks. This comp, even to Danny Green and Dunleavy, and especially Hayward, is laughable.

Danny Green is not really comparable as far as overall production, and has only averaged over 10 ppg once in a four year career. Hayward has been consistently better throughout his career.

Dunleavy was actually pretty damn good in his career, and has fallen off since a back injury, iirc. If Hayward turns out as good as Dunleavy Jr. in his best years, we have a good player. Hayward will likely be a better passer than Dunleavy Jr was, and about even in most other areas. I think Hayward will have a better career though, because he is off to a better start than Dunleavy.
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I think Dunleavy is the best comparison of what we should expect Hayward to be for us. Very solid role player, but definitely not an all-star or superstar quality player. $10M/year is more than fair. If Hayward thinks that offer is a dis...he should go out there and prove the Jazz organization wrong. It's all on you Gordon, prove to us you can lead the team, take over in the clutch, show up every single night, make the all-star team, etc...then the Jazz will show you the money. For now, $10M/year is all you're worth.
 
NUMBERICA said:
When it's his entire history in the playoffs you can. Especially since he was playing really well heading into those playoffs.
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While his playoff numbers over four games probably mean something, statistics are only as valuable as what they can be used to predict. Here are some things Hayward's playoff numbers mean less than:

1) His career numbers.
2) His numbers last season.
3) His agent's gut feeling on the numbers he'll put up next season.
4) His biggest fanboy on this forum pulling predictions out of his ***.

Odds are they mean more than the random integer I'm about to type, but I wouldn't put money on it:

3948713498719430170943810439810439817043913470

So, yes, you can use his playoff numbers to win some argument on this message board, but (if this was a smarter place) the credibility you lose by doing so would outweigh the near meaningless evidence you have.

Hayward's situation has changed so much that, personally, I wouldn't be confident in any model that tried to use past data to predict Hayward's next year (or his next playoff performance, whenever that is). Strange as it is, Hayward himself is probably the best judge in the world right now as to his own value, and even he might be way off.

I don't think it's worth the gamble to pay him a lot until we can gather more data about him in the role we'd be paying for.

I don't know what I'd do if I were Hayward. He could make millions betting on himself this year. Injury is the only real risk he'd be running, because someone will give him 10 mil per year, even if his efficiency drops off.
 
akirac73 said:
$10M/year is more than fair. If Hayward thinks that offer is a dis...he should go out there and prove the Jazz organization wrong. It's all on you Gordon, prove to us you can lead the team, take over in the clutch, show up every single night, make the all-star team, etc...then the Jazz will show you the money. For now, $10M/year is all you're worth.
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That
 
Bringing up Hayward's 4 game playoff stats is idiotic and laughable. I'm not for an overpay here but that's just a lazy argument. Four games guys. For ****s sake
 
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Lets just sign him to 10 day contracts, we can keep doing that all the time. It like getting a pre-paid phone card instead of a 2 year contract.

That or 15 year/3 Mil. I think its fair.
 
Sneakers said:
Bringing up Hayward's 4 game playoff stats is idiotic and laughable. I'm not for an overpay here but that's just a lazy argument. Four games guys. For ****s sake
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However, if he would have averaged 25 pts, 6 assists, and 8 rebounds in that 4 game series then I would bet that his playoff performance would help him to get paid
 
fishonjazz said:
However, if he would have averaged 25 pts, 6 assists, and 8 rebounds in that 4 game series then I would bet that his playoff performance would help him to get paid
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Not if he followed that up with a season averaging 9 ppg on 35% shooting, etc.



If Hayward's extension was immediately following those playoffs then it would have affected the price. But we've seen ample play since then.
 
Sneakers said:
Bringing up Hayward's 4 game playoff stats is idiotic and laughable. I'm not for an overpay here but that's just a lazy argument. Four games guys. For ****s sake
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Agreed. His first playoffs as a second year guy, right? And the team was thoroughly outcoached.
 
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