gregbroncs
Well-Known Member
Why did Bell play soo much in this game. That guy needs to be a 20 minute a game player at the most. Cj is far outperforming him and deserves 30 minutes a night.
Sacramento Kings @ Utah Jazz: November 22nd, 2010 7:00 MST
- Thread starter sirkickyass
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billyshelby
Well-Known Member
When Sloan took CJ out and put Bell in I wondered the same thing. But it does make sense. We need Bell on track, we were in control, and...2) It was another chance to get the whole starting unit minutes. At the end of the half, we were up and Jerry got 4 more minutes of them playing together.
In other words, he wouldn't do the same thing in the 2nd half of the season.
Now don't ask me why Deron set foot on the floor in the 4th. Dumbest move ever.
Darkwing Duck
Well-Known Member
Up fifteen with seven to go is not game in hand.
InGameStrategy
Well-Known Member
In the post-game interview, DW says that he hasn't had a day off and laments his multiple airballs. Yet Sloan puts him on the court because he's afraid the the Jazz are going to lose the game when they are ahead by 20+ points with 7.5 minutes left. THAT'S POOR COACHING MANAGEMENT.
When asked about the 2nd unit's strength, DW explains that that it's maybe because they have been playing more with each other.
Truth is that the 1st unit of DW-Bell-AK-PM-AJ has played several times more minutes than any other unit.
Furthermore, the second unit that turned a deficit into a double-digit lead is composed of at least two players who are new to the team (Watson, Elson). So maybe DW is trying to cover up for the weak starting lineup (or the coaching decisions), but tonight was just the latest of several games that show that more of Miles and more of the bigs means more net scoring (= points scored - points allowed).
gregbroncs
Well-Known Member
So reward the guy that has played like crap and punish the guy that is playing better. That makes no sense to me. I get what your saying but that goes against everything Sloan claims to be about.
InGameStrategy
Well-Known Member
You're post is nearly irrelevant because
(1) only a small fraction of teams come back from a 15-point deficit with 7 minutes left;
(2) it wasn't a 15-point lead with 7 minutes left. Deron came in with a 19-point lead, down only three from the beginning of the quarter, and
(3) there was not sign that the existing lineup's ability to hold a 19-point lead was deteriorating.
billyshelby
Well-Known Member
If I was a coach in November, I'd do the same thing. Sloan needs to get Bell going. He also needs to get his 1st unit going. Miles is killing. So give Bell more minutes tonight, in November, and give the starting unit more minutes since they're sucking.
It was the right move TONIGHT. But I'm not saying it's not debatable either. CJ was so hot. If he did it in a close game or later in the season I'd be really pissed.
InGameStrategy
Well-Known Member
The way to motivate a lineup when they are so-so is not to give them more minutes. Letting Hayward have an extra five minutes is FAR more valuable than letting Bell have an extra 5 minutes, especially when the game wasn't in danger. Same goes for Evans over Millsap or Jefferson, who didn't even muster 10 rebounds each in 35 minutes, which has very little to do with playing the entire lineup together. Bell should be commended for helping to slow down Tyreke Evans vs. TE's going off last year, but Evans wasn't even on the court when Bell came back into the game unnecessarily in Q4.
Such thinking of rewarding poor performance with more PT (or "going with my guys") played a big role in Utah losing against Phoenix, Golden State, Denver, and maybe other games. A far more effective and objective form of coaching is to identify what lineup is working on a given night and stick with that lineup, also taking into account the motivation, development, health (i.e., Deron barely being able to jump, yet being thrown back in the game in the 4Q when it wasn't necessary, especially with Watson and Price doing so well) and chemistry of all players, without putting victories at significant risk.
gregbroncs
Well-Known Member
Oh I agree it is a reasonable thing to do. But it goes against the way Sloan has coached and preached his entire career. He claims to play the lineups that give him the best chance to win each game. If he seriously thinks that this starting lineup in to finish games gives him the best chance to win then I can't figure out what he is seeing. This starting lineup is playing terrible as a unit. I hope they improve. We need to stop getting in a hole so often.
But I still don't like the precedence it sets with your team especially with a young player like CJ. He's been told his whole time here that if he works hard and plays well he'll get minutes. Now that he is and is the 2nd best wing we have right now he is still not getting more minutes than a player he is definitely out performing.
InGameStrategy
Well-Known Member
Yes, and that was valuable in the 2+ quarters in which Tyreke Evans and Bell played together. In the first eight minutes of the second quarter with Bell on the bench, however, Evans scored all of two free throws. So TE actually scored at a higher rate (albeit a successfully modest rate) with Bell defending him than without Bell defending him.
In any case, it still doesn't explain why Bell was compelled to come back in the game in Q4 when Utah was up by deep double digits, Watson & Price were doing just fine, Tyreke Evans was done for the night, and Hayward hadn't even seen the court yet. When your second string is doing better than your first string, and when your starting PG is tired & hobbling, you're better off giving the bench more experience and resting the starters. Fundamental coaching concepts.
Jean-Luc
Member
This game was mega yawn.
Never worried at any point. Refs really let them play though, lots of contact on both ends for most of the night. Really different than officiating before this season, I've seen it a few times this season already... but it's a more like "back in the day" when players could actually bump into each other and there wouldn't instantly be freethrows.
Cousins and some of the other bigs for Sactown looked out of shape. A few players on the Kings barely looked like NBA players.
Lol at the Kings. Also Hayward is a joke. He needs serious time to develop. D League?
Never worried at any point. Refs really let them play though, lots of contact on both ends for most of the night. Really different than officiating before this season, I've seen it a few times this season already... but it's a more like "back in the day" when players could actually bump into each other and there wouldn't instantly be freethrows.
Cousins and some of the other bigs for Sactown looked out of shape. A few players on the Kings barely looked like NBA players.
Lol at the Kings. Also Hayward is a joke. He needs serious time to develop. D League?
Ah there you go with your coaching 101 again.
Being up by 20 with 7 mins to go is'nt that big a margin in the NBA.You saw Millsap score 11 pts in 30 secs against Miami. Sloan has always been erring on the side of caution w.r.t protecting leads. And he wont change it just to please stat-obsessed armchair coaches.
Hanginthere
Member
Well said VJ...
And I would like to add, Sloan understands the history of when these two teams play against one another too... In the last 3 years, me and my wife have gone to 2 Jazz games together... Both were against the Kings... And in both games, we got a huge lead only to let them back into the game and win...
So give Sloan a little credit huh guys?? He understood the history of these two teams (And those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it) and coached the game as if it were just a 3 point lead... Big deal, we won the game... Would you rather have had the Kings come back to win?? Then what would you Johnny come latelys be saying about Sloan??
and we also have a day off to boot. Deron is not going to mind too much about playing just 34 mins as long as he gets the W and a day off. This was actually one of those games where the bench got to see some good action. Even Fesenko the 11th man got to play 15 mins.
InGameStrategy
Well-Known Member
Yes, I am going with coaching 101 because my mantra is about common sense that extends to not only the NBA, to not just basketball, and to not merely most team sports, but also to leadership and management in general.
Among the jobs of a coach--and leader-are the following:
(1) To establish a system (which Sloan does pretty well, and which I rarely dispute);
(2) To motivate (which Sloan does pretty well, except when he rewards poor effort/performance with more playing time and good effort/performance with less);
(3) To make adjustments while things are happening (a failure of which has cost at least two or three games this year, largely associated with incomplete satsifaction of #2);
(4) To develop new personnel (which Sloan failed to take advantage of doing last night, as well as other nights).
Your example of Millsap isn't particularly relevant here because Sacramento was already playing only half of a starting lineup (with the on-court combination not really suggestive of making up of 20-point deficit). Toward the end of the game, Utah was playing more starters than Sacto was, which is ridiculous, especially with the risk of injury and with Deron clearly fatigued (which is when injury happens most).
Your claim of "erring on the side of caution" would be less weak if Sloan had kept the bench in because they had proven in the previous two quarters to be superior to what the starting lineup was producing (and this isn't the first night that this is the case btw).
I continue to wait for you and anyone else to cite the probability that a team down 15 points (really 16 to 20 points) at 7 minutes left comes back to win. Conservatively, I peg it at 20%, give or take 15%.
It seems that Phil Jackson, who has about as many rings as Sloan has fingers, normally subs in the starters when the lead evaporates to 12, 10, or even 8 points. Sloan's decision was especially damning with Deron clearly stating in the postgame that he was slow and had no lift.
Here's a citation of Alvin Gentry leaving the bench players in the game -- coincidentally at the 7-minute mark also -- because they were doing better than the starters. That's good leadership. That's good decisionmaking. That's good motivation and development. That's good coaching.
https://www.nba.com/suns/playoffs/playoffs2010_r3g4.html
Hayward made two great plays where he penetrated and dished the ball one hit Evans right in the gut because he was not paying attention is still lead to a pair (of missed) free throws and the second was to Millsap I think and it bounced off his hands. Sorry that he did not score 12 points in the 4 minutes he was on the floor but some of your bashing is ridiculous. Could he play better yes. Should he have gotten more time to get into the game yes will he develop without getting stable playing time.... that is the question. I don't think the D-League is the answer. Most guys don't actually seem to improve while they are there.
LifeOnaPlate
Well-Known Member
Yes. The fourth quarter line up decisions seemed idiotic to me. Harpring ventured that maybe they are trying to get DWill some time to find his rhythm before Friday's loss, but I'm not sure that makes sense.
LifeOnaPlate
Well-Known Member
The worst? Didn't you watch the season opener against Denver? That was 10 times worse, and Utah lost to boot.