From Mormon Women, a Flood of Requests and Questions on Their Role in the Church | NY Times

[colton]

To me there are two parts to this. The revealed doctrine and the traditions/culture of the Church.

Excellent point. For example, in our ward last Sunday we had two adult speakers. One was a young newly married man, and the other was an older, experienced, very educated woman. The young man was the concluding speaker even though tradition is that the older, more authoritative person typically speaks last. I have no doubt that if the older speaker had been male, he would have spoken last. That's certainly an area where culture could (and should in my opinion) change. There is no revealed doctrine that says when a man and woman are both speaking, the man must speak last. Similarly the whole "woman praying in General Conference" thing that happened a year or two ago was WAY overdue to happen in my opinion.

As for ordaining woman to the priesthood, I don't see it ever happening.

I am reminded of Pres. Hinckley's comments on that matter from his 1997 interview with ABC. https://www.abc.net.au/compass/intervs/hinckley.htm

RB: At present women are not allowed to be priests in your Church. Why is that?

GBH: That’s right, because the Lord has put it that way. Now women have a very prominent place in this Church. They have there own organisation. Probably the largest women’s organisation in the world of 3.7 million members. There own ???. And the women of that organisation sit on Boards. Our Board of Education things of that kind. They counsel with us. We counsel together. They bring in insight that we very much appreciate and they have this tremendous organisation of the world where they grow and if you ask them they’ll say we’re happy and we’re satisfied.

RB: They all say that?

GBH: Yes. All except a oh you’ll find a little handful one or two here and there, but in 10 million members you expect that.

RB: You say the Lord has put it that way. What do you mean by that?

GBH: I mean that’s a part of His programme. Of course it is, yes.

RB: Is it possible that the rules could change in the future as the rules are on Blacks ?

GBH: He could change them yes. If He were to change them that’s the only way it would happen.

RB: So you’d have to get a revelation?

GBH: Yes.

I thought it was very interesting that he didn't say that it would NOT happen. He said it would take a revelation. And that in my opinion is the correct answer to the question.

 

[Dr. Jones]

It sounds like you are completely against excommunication in all forms, then. How do you interpret passages of scripture that seem to argue pretty strongly in favor of excommunication in some circumstances, such as Matthew 16:15-20 and 1 Cor 5?

I am against telling anyone they are unworthy of Heaven. You can excommunicate from your church, your religion, but the Bible states all sin separates us from God and only through the blood of Jesus (and us accepting Him as our Savior) are any of us (ANY) able to make it into Heaven.

Why the need to inform someone they're not getting to Heaven? I believe our roles are to teach, love, instruct, and steer those that want to know God, or already do, to a better walk with Christ. It is not our role to decide whether they are found acceptable in the eyes of Him.

Such as this..

Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

 

[infection]

Why the need to inform someone they're not getting to Heaven?

There are a lot of things in this thread I'd like to reply to but I'm without a computer. In any case, I'd like to address the above. I think there may be some fundamental misunderstanding here. You'll likely find, despite some commonly held beliefs, that LDS theology is actually quite liberal in its belief in an all-loving, omniscient God who has provided all of His children a path to not only return to His presence, but to be like Him in nature and character, all made possible through Christ. LDS theology believes that all will be able to make a decision as to whether they will accept this. I think often times we superimpose a lot of cultural beliefs and view things from a lens that doesn't provide the best clarity, as many have come away with the feeling that it's a judgement of who is or is not going to heaven.

 

[Dr. Jones]

There are a lot of things in this thread I'd like to reply to but I'm without a computer. In any case, I'd like to address the above. I think there may be some fundamental misunderstanding here. You'll likely find, despite some commonly held beliefs, that LDS theology is actually quite liberal in its belief in an all-loving, omniscient God who has provided all of His children a path to not only return to His presence, but to be like Him in nature and character, all made possible through Christ. LDS theology believes that all will be able to make a decision as to whether they will accept this. I think often times we superimpose a lot of cultural beliefs and view things from a lens that doesn't provide the best clarity, as many have come away with the feeling that it's a judgement of who is or is not going to heaven.

Thanks for the reply.

"Excommunication" implies something, in my mind, that takes things to another level... a man-made level. I love LDS folks.. I REALLY do. Soooo many kudos I could give, but I believe the religious strongholds, rites, ordinances, etc is more of an apostasy than the 'original' church it was 'founded' to replace.

I hope no one feels I am on an anti-Mormon rant (and I could certainly see where you would), but I'm just sharing my sincere feelings from brother to brother.

 

[infection]

Good points. Will address in more detail tomorrow.

 

[colton]

I am against telling anyone they are unworthy of Heaven. You can excommunicate from your church, your religion, but the Bible states all sin separates us from God and only through the blood of Jesus (and us accepting Him as our Savior) are any of us (ANY) able to make it into Heaven.

Why the need to inform someone they're not getting to Heaven?

As infection said, I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding going on. I don't know of any LDS who would disagree with you on that. I certainly am not the ultimate judge of anyone, nor are any other LDS--although we do consider a bishop to be a judge in some respects in that they hold church discipline courts if e.g. excommunication may be warranted. But I, for example, would never tell you that you are not getting to Heaven. And I have a couple of friends who are great people but recently left the church--I would similarly never tell them that either. And I doubt even a bishop would say that of someone whom he has just excommunicated.

 

[Dr. Jones]

As infection said, I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding going on. I don't know of any LDS who would disagree with you on that. I certainly am not the ultimate judge of anyone, nor are any other LDS--although we do consider a bishop to be a judge in some respects in that they hold church discipline courts if e.g. excommunication may be warranted. But I, for example, would never tell you that you are not getting to Heaven. And I have a couple of friends who are great people but recently left the church--I would similarly never tell them that either. And I doubt even a bishop would say that of someone whom he has just excommunicated.

Same thing though, right? Be honest.

When someone is excommunicated from the LDS church for transgressions, isn't the general view that they are damned? More, much more, importantly, is that the feeling they're left with when handed their walking papers?

 

[Deleted member 848]

I get behind the way you said it. "Membership is a privilege" sounds like a country club.
Triangle Man does not always win. Sometimes he quits.

lmao just got to this post in this thread #shotsfired

 

[Stifle Tower]

Same thing though, right? Be honest.

When someone is excommunicated from the LDS church for transgressions, isn't the general view that they are damned? More, much more, importantly, is that the feeling they're left with when handed their walking papers?

1. Damned? No, not at all. As Christians, I think we all believe we're saved through Christ by accepting him as our Savior. Where the LDS faith differs from most other is in the belied that our level of salvation will also be determined by our degree of faith and our behavior upon the earth (the "faith without works is dead" part of the equation, if you will). If we simply profess Christ is our Savior without striving to live in accordance with his teachings is that really acceptance of him?

2. Getting one's "walking papers" and one's feelings at the time very much depends on the circumstances behind the excommunication. I have known people who were excommunicated for various offenses (e.g. adultery) who showed a spirit of contrition and repentance and then returned to membership. I have known others who developed a hatred for the LDS faith and have since sought to berate the church in general and those leaders in specific at every opportunity. Personally, I have never quite understood that attitude. If one disagrees with the doctrine of the LDS Church, or any other faith they belong to (Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Islamic), why not just leave and find another belief system?

AS to whether they'll be "damned?" Guess that depends on your definition of the word. Or, in most Christian faiths whether they still belief in and accept Christ as the Messiah.

 

[Dr. Jones]

1. Damned? No, not at all. As Christians, I think we all believe we're saved through Christ by accepting him as our Savior. Where the LDS faith differs from most other is in the belied that our level of salvation will also be determined by our degree of faith and our behavior upon the earth (the "faith without works is dead" part of the equation, if you will). If we simply profess Christ is our Savior without striving to live in accordance with his teachings is that really acceptance of him?

2. Getting one's "walking papers" and one's feelings at the time very much depends on the circumstances behind the excommunication. I have known people who were excommunicated for various offenses (e.g. adultery) who showed a spirit of contrition and repentance and then returned to membership. I have known others who developed a hatred for the LDS faith and have since sought to berate the church in general and those leaders in specific at every opportunity. Personally, I have never quite understood that attitude. If one disagrees with the doctrine of the LDS Church, or any other faith they belong to (Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Islamic), why not just leave and find another belief system?

AS to whether they'll be "damned?" Guess that depends on your definition of the word. Or, in most Christian faiths whether they still belief in and accept Christ as the Messiah.

That's a good response. Best yet, tbh.

I still stand against membership in a church as an eternally important thing. I think the LDS church as well as any other religion that purports themselves as the 'one' as blasphemic against the nature of God...... most importantly when someone finds themselves excommunicated and on the outside looking in. Into what? They have had their eyes misguided from God to a man-made, ordinance ridden, earn-your-way, sect that puts themselves in between.

I have a relationship with God. I know Jesus. I doubt I need permission from any group to get to either.

 

[♪alt13]

I am surely damned, as are almost all of you. You cannot just ignore the list of damnable transgressions that are in the bible. Non believers like myself won't get in not to mention muslims, jews, hindus, Budhists, etc. Gay people can't go to a christian heaven. Rich folk are ****ed. When the end comes 144k are going to heaven and the rest damned.

Read the bible women clearly are not equal. It is not just a mormon problem. Secular society has forced christians over and over again to temper their faith. Each time christian apologists have quickly managed to sweep the nasty bigotry and misogyny propagated by their prophets, preachers, and theologians under the rug. It is insane that any politician has managed with a straight face to admit his belief in the bible and then proceed to lecture an entire nation on morality.

The bible is bat **** crazy and the book of mormon only slightly less so(not a great accomplishment considering it had the advantage of being written after the enlightenment) and I for one am done pretending that these cooky views deserve any rational consideration.

 

[Dr. Jones]

^you, sir, are hereby and henceforth excommunicated. Be gone with thyself and departeth thee to the land of shame.
Adios.

 

[colton]

Same thing though, right? Be honest.

When someone is excommunicated from the LDS church for transgressions, isn't the general view that they are damned?

I'd say some might feel that way but most wouldn't. Again, we recognize that we are not the final judge, and that not all of the facts in the situation can be known. At worst the general view would be that they are in trouble unless they repent and reunite with the church... but who is to say that they won't? And part of LDS doctrine is that people in the hereafter continue to make choices, repent, etc., so even if they don't in this life, who is to say that they won't in the next?

More, much more, importantly, is that the feeling they're left with when handed their walking papers?

I'm not sure how frequently you believe excommunication occurs. I'm 43 and was raised a member of the church, and I have never known anyone who has been excommunicated*. Certainly when I served as a counselor to a branch president (like a bishop, but for a smaller congregation) we never excommunicated anyone. From examples that I'm familiar with (high profile people who made the news), people who get excommunicated are ones who actively and publicly teaching people the church is false, or who were actively and publicly teaching false doctrine even after the church requested they cease, or things like that. In my opinion an excommunication is an obvious and expected outcome for that type of behavior and they had already essentially cut themselves off from the church before the church did it officially. As far as the more "garden variety" of sins, I think it's possible that someone could get excommunicated for e.g. cheating on his wife, but that even there it would be pretty unlikely unless he was a bishop, stake president, or other church leader at the time.

(If anyone has more experience with excommunication, either personally or with friends/family, I'm willing to defer to their experience.)


* unless you count people who request to be removed from the church's rolls, a type of self-excommunication I suppose. That's probably happened a time or two.

 

[colton]

That's a good response. Best yet, tbh.

I still stand against membership in a church as an eternally important thing. I think the LDS church as well as any other religion that purports themselves as the 'one' as blasphemic against the nature of God...... most importantly when someone finds themselves excommunicated and on the outside looking in. Into what? They have had their eyes misguided from God to a man-made, ordinance ridden, earn-your-way, sect that puts themselves in between.

I have a relationship with God. I know Jesus. I doubt I need permission from any group to get to either.

One thing about the LDS church is that we believe that covenants are important and necessary for salvation. One example is the covenant to follow Jesus made at baptism. Jesus and the apostles taught that one must be baptized to be saved, and that the baptism must be performed by someone holding the proper authority.* We believe that authority was restored to Joseph Smith (after having been absent from the earth for a good long while, in what we call the "great apostasy"), and that it is only found in the LDS church. That's one of the reasons why membership in the church is important. So from the LDS point of view, we'd say that you are missing out on blessings and opportunities to serve and make important covenants, by not uniting yourself with Christ's church in the present--but we also would say that if you truly believe and follow Jesus, you will definitely take the opportunity to do so in the hereafter when your understanding is perhaps a bit better than it is today.


* by our interpretation of various scriptural passages; I understand that some others interpret those passages differently.

 

[Dr. Jones]

I know maybe 15 or so excommunicated. That's not my point, though.

My point is that living in Utah I see way too many stressed out (including bishops and stake presidents, mission presidents, etc) over measuring up to the standards expected of them. Does God expect much? I don't claim to know His level of expectation. But what I do feel is a spiritual sorrow for those that have not just been excommunicated, but for those that are active but feel like they're drowning in appointed responsibilities.

I'm sure this post will come off as a pandering toward grace is greater than works (it's not the meaning, though I do believe that to be true), but my intention is more pure. I simply witness, on a daily basis, very good people so tired and struggling to keep up that they have little time to rest and have fellowship with their Lord and Savior. Am I bashing the LDS church? Please.. no. I just believe it, like others before it, has gotten out of hand and it is slowly replacing God Himself in the lives of the average member. I'm not being cute, at all, when I say that mourns my spirit.

 

[colton]

I know maybe 15 or so excommunicated.

That really shocks me, and I think you might be misunderstanding their situations. Perhaps you are confusing other stages of "church discipline" with the final stage of excommunication.

That's not my point, though.

My point is that living in Utah I see way too many stressed out (including bishops and stake presidents, mission presidents, etc) over measuring up to the standards expected of them. Does God expect much? I don't claim to know His level of expectation. But what I do feel is a spiritual sorrow for those that have not just been excommunicated, but for those that are active but feel like they're drowning in appointed responsibilities.

I'm sure this post will come off as a pandering toward grace is greater than works (it's not the meaning, though I do believe that to be true), but my intention is more pure. I simply witness, on a daily basis, very good people so tired and struggling to keep up that they have little time to rest and have fellowship with their Lord and Savior. Am I bashing the LDS church? Please.. no. I just believe it, like others before it, has gotten out of hand and it is slowly replacing God Himself in the lives of the average member. I'm not being cute, at all, when I say that mourns my spirit.

That's changing the topic quite a bit but I do agree with you that those things are a danger, and that one's personal relationship with God and Jesus is the most important thing.

On the other hand, Jesus clearly taught to "be ye therefore perfect" and to "go and sin no more". So it's important to continually strive for holiness even as we recognize that everyone falls short at times. And the church provides clear teaching on how to live holy, which I appreciate, and provides opportunities to serve and help others--which certainly also helps one become holy.

I have more to say about this, but I've got to run to church choir practice now or I'll be late.

 

[Dr. Jones]

One thing about the LDS church is that we believe that covenants are important and necessary for salvation. One example is the covenant to follow Jesus made at baptism. Jesus and the apostles taught that one must be baptized to be saved, and that the baptism must be performed by someone holding the proper authority.* We believe that authority was restored to Joseph Smith (after having been absent from the earth for a good long while, in what we call the "great apostasy"), and that it is only found in the LDS church. That's one of the reasons why membership in the church is important. So from the LDS point of view, we'd say that you are missing out on blessings and opportunities to serve and make important covenants, by not uniting yourself with Christ's church in the present--but we also would say that if you truly believe and follow Jesus, you will definitely take the opportunity to do so in the hereafter when your understanding is perhaps a bit better than it is today.


* by our interpretation of various scriptural passages; I understand that some others interpret those passages differently.

Yes, I understand and thank you for not taking the conversation offensively. I wouldn't say it if my intentions were to hurt.
I understand the doctrine and the ordinances/covenenants quite well, I believe. I have been in Utah for 9 years now. I have 6 business partners and I am the only non-LDS. One partner is in the bishop ric, another is stake president, another is a mission prez in South Africa, another is serving as the LDS ambassador to the United Nations in Geneva, Switzerland. On the flip side, I have friends that have been as high up as bishop but voluntarily left the LDS church.

Every single one of these people have commented that, when listening to my message, they feel things have gotten perhaps too complicated.
The stake prez delivered a message to a huge group for some event. In that message he called it "what I have learned from a non-LDS friend, Patrick Manning".. he went on to explain that while attempting to live a Christ-like life is more difficult at times than living for oneself, let's try to remember for whom we're doing this for so we can feel His love and His love can be seen as a light in us.

They all admit they're light is probably a bit dimmed by all of the church-structured responsibilities that has their lives and minds consumed.

I hope my point has been made without an agenda of my own. I just want to say to all my LDS friends that I think God would like a little less works in favor of some 'Me' time.

 

[Dr. Jones]

That really shocks me, and I think you might be misunderstanding their situations. Perhaps you are confusing other stages of "church discipline" with the final stage of excommunication.



That's changing the topic quite a bit but I do agree with you that those things are a danger, and that one's personal relationship with God and Jesus is the most important thing.

On the other hand, Jesus clearly taught to "be ye therefore perfect" and to "go and sin no more". So it's important to continually strive for holiness even as we recognize that everyone falls short at times. And the church provides clear teaching on how to live holy, which I appreciate, and provides opportunities to serve and help others--which certainly also helps one become holy.

I have more to say about this, but I've got to run to church choir practice now or I'll be late.

I agree with everyting here. Sing well.

 

[bigb]

One thing about the LDS church is that we believe that covenants are important and necessary for salvation. One example is the covenant to follow Jesus made at baptism. Jesus and the apostles taught that one must be baptized to be saved, and that the baptism must be performed by someone holding the proper authority.* We believe that authority was restored to Joseph Smith (after having been absent from the earth for a good long while, in what we call the "great apostasy"), and that it is only found in the LDS church. That's one of the reasons why membership in the church is important. So from the LDS point of view, we'd say that you are missing out on blessings and opportunities to serve and make important covenants, by not uniting yourself with Christ's church in the present--but we also would say that if you truly believe and follow Jesus, you will definitely take the opportunity to do so in the hereafter when your understanding is perhaps a bit better than it is today.


* by our interpretation of various scriptural passages; I understand that some others interpret those passages differently.

My father-in-law was ex-communicated (long before I met him). When I met him, he had been re-baptized. He never was able to get any further than that. He never got his priesthood back, and was basically told not to reapply unless significant changes were made in his life. He was disfellowshipped again later and now has been baptized into a "Christian church" (his words). Basically, he has a problem keeping his ****** in his pants, especially while married. I personally believe that if he is denied entrance, his actions will be a bigger problem with him getting through the pearly gates than his membership in any church will. Not that I am a judge in any way.

I know maybe 15 or so excommunicated. That's not my point, though.

My point is that living in Utah I see way too many stressed out (including bishops and stake presidents, mission presidents, etc) over measuring up to the standards expected of them. Does God expect much? I don't claim to know His level of expectation. But what I do feel is a spiritual sorrow for those that have not just been excommunicated, but for those that are active but feel like they're drowning in appointed responsibilities.

I'm sure this post will come off as a pandering toward grace is greater than works (it's not the meaning, though I do believe that to be true), but my intention is more pure. I simply witness, on a daily basis, very good people so tired and struggling to keep up that they have little time to rest and have fellowship with their Lord and Savior. Am I bashing the LDS church? Please.. no. I just believe it, like others before it, has gotten out of hand and it is slowly replacing God Himself in the lives of the average member. I'm not being cute, at all, when I say that mourns my spirit.

I think there is a lot to be said about this. I think the Church in general expects too much out of a lot of their leaders. And so many do it out of fear of being damned or judged harshly. As the Boy Scout leader, should I really use up my only week of paid vacation to take the scouts on a week long camp and not go on a vacation with my family? There are some in the Church who say yes to this. I say blow it up your ***. My priorities lay with my kids before someone else. I have seen so many members base their actions and decisions on what others in the church have done or what they think they should do. It's the "spirit of the law" vs. the "letter of the law". Should I not go to my nephews birthday party at Chuck E Cheese on Sunday so I can "keep the Sabbath holy"? No, I go to the party and have a crap load of fun playing games and eating pizza with him.

 

[bigb]

I quoted the wrong Colton post there^. Meant to quote the post about excommunicating members. No way I'm redoing it on the iPad.