When Will We Contend?

[fishonjazz]

Have you ever even read the rules?

Have you ever read posts on this message board?

 

[LogGrad98]

I dont think trolling is against the rules.

Have you ever even read the rules?

Trolling: Deliberate attempts to disrupt the usability of the boards will be considered trolling. These include (but are not limited to) comments made solely to provoke reactions, bizarre formatting of posts, extremely large images, many new threads started right after each other, signing a negative rep comment with someone else's name, etc. Depending on the severity of the trolling, the single strike policy may be enacted.

Stop deliberately attempting to disrupt the usability of the boards fish. Jeez.

 

[Stifle Tower]

So we went from a post about when the Jazz might be contenders again to some weird attack on stoked. Looks like trolling to me. Maybe it needs to be reported as such.

You are completely wrong. Nowhere in the thread title did it say "Jazz." So there you go making weird assumptions and then accusing us of trolling. Makes me want to contend with you!





So in other words, we're already contending, particularly in this thread.

 

[LogGrad98]

I don't mind being patient with the Jazz organization as long as I don't have to wait. But, seriously folks, how long will it be until the Jazz are contenders in the NBA. I know the Jazz have been trying to get flexibility in the salary cap for free agents, but I don't see much potential in available free agents. I don't see a big trade bringing a star here and I don't see a draft pick turning things around instantly.

You are completely wrong. Nowhere in the thread title did it say "Jazz." So there you go making weird assumptions and then accusing us of trolling. Makes me want to contend with you!

Blatant troll there. Man lots of reporting be going on up in here.

 

[Stoked]

I'm gonna go ahead and ban all of you.

@Log - While it can certainly go that way I have always been a more optimistic guy. I think we get our last big piece thru this draft. Then use free agency to fill out the roster. For example a deep range 3 man and a backup big.

 

[Stifle Tower]

Blatant troll there. Man lots of reporting be going on up in here.

Who reads the OP? I read the thread title which isn't clear. Just having fun - as were the others.

AS for the "Jazz" contending, I think "contend" needs to be better defined. How many different teams have won a title in the past 20 years? With Deron, when the team went all the way to WC finals, were the Jazz "contenders?" How far down the list of the WC playoff teams do you want to go to define a contender. I'd probably include GS right now and perhaps not Portland although the standings don't reflect that yet. So 7-8 teams total right now?

Definitely think Utah can follow Portland's model and make a leap next season. But who will they displace? Playoffs (or just miss) next year, maybe 3 years before they are fighting for HC advantage in the WC, which, IMO, would make them a contender.

 

[fishonjazz]

Who reads the OP? I read the thread title which isn't clear. Just having fun - as were the others.

AS for the "Jazz" contending, I think "contend" needs to be better defined. How many different teams have won a title in the past 20 years? With Deron, when the team went all the way to WC finals, were the Jazz "contenders?" How far down the list of the WC playoff teams do you want to go to define a contender. I'd probably include GS right now and perhaps not Portland although the standings don't reflect that yet. So 7-8 teams total right now?

Definitely think Utah can follow Portland's model and make a leap next season. But who will they displace? Playoffs (or just miss) next year, maybe 3 years before they are fighting for HC advantage in the WC, which, IMO, would make them a contender.

I think people get confused with "favorites" vs "contenders"
The thunder and the heat are the "favorites" (maybe san antonio and indiana too)

IMO "contenders" are teams that if everything goes right for them (good matchups, get hot at the right time, stay healthy, opponent suffers some injuries) COULD possibly win the title but it isn't really likely.
I have miami, indiana, OKC, san antonio, clippers, rockets, and warriors as contenders this year. (chicago and portland are fringe contenders imo)

So i want the jazz to be a top 8 or 10 team and i will be happy. I think they will get to that range within 5 years max
Our future is bright despite this miserable (to some) season.

 

[green]

I disagree. To be the favorites, i do think you need one of those types.... but i think that the clippers, pacers, thunder, heat, spurs, rockets and warriors are all "contenders". I think it is much less likely for houston, golden state, and the clippers to win the title this year but i think they all have a shot at least.

Of course if the warriors won the title then you would just say "you have to have lebron, durant, or curry to win a title" If the clippers win it then you will say "you have to have 2 of the top players to win it" (paul and griffin) If indiana wins it, then they are "the exception to the rule" If houston wins it then its because they also have 2 top players .

I just want the jazz to get into the top 8 teams area..... you never know what could happen. Lebron and durant could get hurt. You catch a team that has a few bad games in a series. Our team gets hot at the right time. etc etc.

What did I say in my depressing stats thread? I think it was that only LeBron, Jordan, Hakeem, Duncan have won titles since 1990. There was Dirk and Billups as well, but those guys got lucky (injuries).

I guess it means what your definition of contending is. Having a realistic chance to contend isn't possible. You have to have a player that is better than every player in the NBA. If you don't have that player, history tells us you won't win.

 

[green]

FWIW I am not as optimistic as others. I think it will be some time before we truly are contenders again. I think we will end up with a pick in the 6-9 range this next year, which is ok at best. It is unlikely we can get any strong free agents to come here, and the draft is not going to bail us out anytime soon. All in all a pretty bleak outlook. I sure hope I am wrong, but I just don't see the light at the end of the tunnel this time.

I agree with this. I think our ceiling looks to be the Deron years...which weren't all that great.

 

[fishonjazz]

What did I say in my depressing stats thread? I think it was that only LeBron, Jordan, Hakeem, Duncan have won titles since 1990. There was Dirk and Billups as well, but those guys got lucky (injuries).

I guess it means what your definition of contending is. Having a realistic chance to contend isn't possible. You have to have a player that is better than every player in the NBA. If you don't have that player, history tells us you won't win.

Or lebron gets hurt..... or like you said, you get lucky.
You mentioned dallas and detroit..... there will be more teams like dallas and detroit to win titles in the future. **** happens and teams get lucky.

Maybe the jazz will be a dallas/detroit type team. Maybe golden state, or the clippers, or indiana will be that team this year.

That is why you need to get to that "contender" status (which can be done without the best player in the nba) and then you have a chance.

I think that to be the "favorite" you need that lebron/jordan/kobe/shaq/durant type player but favorites do get upset from time to time. (Miami almost lost multiple series over the last 2 years)

 

[berat_36]

top 3 pick

will make us decent next year.

Agree with that. One masterpiece is still missing. Jabari would be so perfect for the Jazz or someone who can score easily. Jazz have to work hard for every point they get. Player like Harden makes life soo easy. Hopefully the Jazz are getting Jabari and can keep Gordon for a fair price.

 

[JoelHodgeJr]

Have you ever even read the rules?

What you are doing is trolling. You posted a general statement in a focused thread just to get a rise out of someone. Just because people don't agree with stoked doesn't mean they are trolling.

Trolling by calling others trolls is quite pathetic.

With that being said. I believe we will be in the playoff hunt in two years if we keep our core4 and Burke. There is ALOT of talent on this team. If they learn each others strengths and weaknesses and how to work with them then we could be a really good team with no major changes made.

Sent from the JazzFanz app

 

[green]

Or lebron gets hurt..... or like you said, you get lucky.
You mentioned dallas and detroit..... there will be more teams like dallas and detroit to win titles in the future. **** happens and teams get lucky.

Maybe the jazz will be a dallas/detroit type team. Maybe golden state, or the clippers, or indiana will be that team this year.

That is why you need to get to that "contender" status (which can be done without the best player in the nba) and then you have a chance.

I think that to be the "favorite" you need that lebron/jordan/kobe/shaq/durant type player but favorites do get upset from time to time. (Miami almost lost multiple series over the last 2 years)

Yeah, what sucks about the NBA is that 1 team has a shot to win the title 9 out of 10 years. 29 teams have a shot to win it 1 out of every 10 years.

The problem is, there are too many teams. Once you have the best player in the NBA and another All-Star you are literally unbeatable. So, unless the Jazz draft someone who becomes the best player in the NBA, odds are they will never win a title.

 

[green]

With that being said. I believe we will be in the playoff hunt in two years if we keep our core4 and Burke. There is ALOT of talent on this team. If they learn each others strengths and weaknesses and how to work with them then we could be a really good team with no major changes made.

Sent from the JazzFanz app

Here is my issue with that: What is the goal of this team? Is it to win a title? Or make the playoffs? Either way, they have screwed themselves over. If it is to win a title, then they need to sit players and lose, because the only shot Utah has at a title is to get Parker/Wiggins and hope they turn out better then Durrant.

If it's to make the playoffs and "contend" then they were stupid, because they could have done that this year with a few tweaks to the current roster.

Either way, the Jazz look like they might be stuck in Minnesota/Milwaukee/Sacramento land...too good to actually get good, and too sucky to be good.

 

[SojoDave]

Either way, the Jazz look like they might be stuck in Minnesota/Milwaukee/Sacramento land...too good to actually get good, and too sucky to be good.

This is what scares me. Think how long some teams go on losing season after season. I don't know if this market will support a perennial loser. Look at how many green seats are at the games this year.

 

[JoelHodgeJr]

Here is my issue with that: What is the goal of this team? Is it to win a title? Or make the playoffs? Either way, they have screwed themselves over. If it is to win a title, then they need to sit players and lose, because the only shot Utah has at a title is to get Parker/Wiggins and hope they turn out better then Durrant.

If it's to make the playoffs and "contend" then they were stupid, because they could have done that this year with a few tweaks to the current roster.

Either way, the Jazz look like they might be stuck in Minnesota/Milwaukee/Sacramento land...too good to actually get good, and too sucky to be good.

The first step to winning the title is making the playoffs. The organization needs to make that there first goal. Look at OKC they took four years with Durant before they were considered good.

You don't build a championship team in a year. Playoffs first then tweak for the ship.

Sent from the JazzFanz app

 

[fishonjazz]

Here is my issue with that: What is the goal of this team? Is it to win a title? Or make the playoffs? Either way, they have screwed themselves over. If it is to win a title, then they need to sit players and lose, because the only shot Utah has at a title is to get Parker/Wiggins and hope they turn out better then Durrant.

If it's to make the playoffs and "contend" then they were stupid, because they could have done that this year with a few tweaks to the current roster.

Either way, the Jazz look like they might be stuck in Minnesota/Milwaukee/Sacramento land...too good to actually get good, and too sucky to be good.

There is a third option.... make the playoffs and go deep in the playoffs which is what i think thier plan is

 

[Stifle Tower]

What you are doing is trolling. You posted a general statement in a focused thread just to get a rise out of someone. Just because people don't agree with stoked doesn't mean they are trolling.

Trolling by calling others trolls is quite pathetic.

With that being said. I believe we will be in the playoff hunt in two years if we keep our core4 and Burke. There is ALOT of talent on this team. If they learn each others strengths and weaknesses and how to work with them then we could be a really good team with no major changes made.

Sent from the JazzFanz app

I'm not sold yet on all of the core5. I do agree there is a lot of talent PLUS the addition of a top-10, maybe even top-5 pick this year + another potentially solid rotation player with the GS pick. DL has the assets and cap space to bring in a FA and/or make some trades.

Will Utah ever have a "LeBron" or "Kobe?" Probably not. Even a top-3 pick is not guaranteed to bring in a superstar: Parker, Wiggins, Embiid are POTENTIALLY superstars, but not automatic. That said, the Jazz will be extremely deep after this draft. There is potential to trade assets to improve the team.

 

[Stoked]

Here is my issue with that: What is the goal of this team? Is it to win a title? Or make the playoffs? Either way, they have screwed themselves over. If it is to win a title, then they need to sit players and lose, because the only shot Utah has at a title is to get Parker/Wiggins and hope they turn out better then Durrant.

If it's to make the playoffs and "contend" then they were stupid, because they could have done that this year with a few tweaks to the current roster.

Either way, the Jazz look like they might be stuck in Minnesota/Milwaukee/Sacramento land...too good to actually get good, and too sucky to be good.

I disagree. I think the Jazz had given a very good effort towards a championship this year. Would being the worst team in the league be better pick wise? Sure. But the jazz simply have to much talent for that. I am surprised we don't have 5-6 more wins to be honest. The jazz have been developing the players we have and are in very good position (so far) on the tank. They are fighting for the 4th pick going into the lottery.

This sense that all is lost just doesn't click with me.

 

[green]

This is what scares me. Think how long some teams go on losing season after season. I don't know if this market will support a perennial loser. Look at how many green seats are at the games this year.

Actually, the Jazz, as far as selling tickets goes, have done quite well this year.