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Not sure who you are agreeing with because I did not state that I thought patriarchy hurts men or women, but nice attempt at putting words in my mouth.

You don't think calling men soft, indecisive, weak, etc., when they exhibit traits traditionally associated with women, is hurtful?

You say riding differently is not necessarily a bad thing which is an ambiguous statement. It is not necessarily a good thing. Depends on your perspective doesn't it.

Exactly so, which is why everyone should be determining where the fulcrum rests in their own life.

Power and authority are very different things. Power as the world views it is much different than true power. Priesthood authority is much different than priesthood power.

Authority makes applying your power easier, and allows you to spread the effects further with the same effort.

I haven't forgotten the other thread. I am thinking about it. Lots of good stuff in there.
 
It was a metaphor. There are messages we both agree are bad. That's no reason for me to ignore other, possibly less frequent messages that are bad.

Sure, as long as you don't try to make it sound like you are in disagreement with me about said message, as I don't think "since there is starvation in Africa, we don't need to help the poor in the USA."
 
You don't think calling men soft, indecisive, weak, etc., when they exhibit traits traditionally associated with women, is hurtful?
I didn't say one way or the other, so there is nothing to agree with.


Exactly so, which is why everyone should be determining where the fulcrum rests in their own life.

What you are not addressing is the fact that all of these individual fulcrum's are interconnected and moving one affects them all. This is like living in an HOA, you all may be individuals, but each of you as individuals have a say in the association as a whole as well. It's more than just a "me" thing.

Authority makes applying your power easier, and allows you to spread the effects further with the same effort.

Yes, actual authority is important. A key point in this is that the source of the authority comes from God in this instance. If the Church gives authority to someone that God is not actually backing, it turns into apparent authority where it looks like they are an agent of God, but they truly have no legitimate/actual authority. That can cause problems. You seem to be implying that this authority can be changed on a whim by man, but the only being that can change this is God. If you do not believe in God in the same way, then you see this from a worldly view.

Question for you. Ghandi, did he have authority? Martin Luther King Jr., did he have authority. Mother Theresa, did she have authority? Confucius, did he have authority? Plato, did he have authority? Nelson Mandela, Albert Einstein, Madame Curie, William Shakespeare, Leonardo Da Vinci, Hellen Keller, Thomas Paine, Oprah, Martin Luther... I could go on and on. Was it authority that made them great?

I haven't forgotten the other thread. I am thinking about it. Lots of good stuff in there.

:)
 
Oh Oprah has authority alright. And she got the POWER!
 
Sure, as long as you don't try to make it sound like you are in disagreement with me about said message, as I don't think "since there is starvation in Africa, we don't need to help the poor in the USA."

I meant that metaphorically, not literally. I apologize for not making that more clear. What I meant was that saying "Have you seen the messages out there? I'm much less worried about messages like this that occur millions of times than the other messages that are out there billions and trillions of times that do some real damage...." seemed to me like an attempt to tell me that the messages I was addressing were not worth worrying about by comparison, and I was pointing out that I rejected such logic. I should have clarified that.
 
What you are not addressing is the fact that all of these individual fulcrum's are interconnected and moving one affects them all. This is like living in an HOA, you all may be individuals, but each of you as individuals have a say in the association as a whole as well. It's more than just a "me" thing.

That goes the other way even more strongly. Attempts to set the fulcrum in the same place for everyone not only affects everyone's fulcrum, but affects those whose fulcrum most comfortably placed differently from yours in a manner that is particularly harsh.

Yes, actual authority is important. A key point in this is that the source of the authority comes from God in this instance. If the Church gives authority to someone that God is not actually backing, it turns into apparent authority where it looks like they are an agent of God, but they truly have no legitimate/actual authority. That can cause problems. You seem to be implying that this authority can be changed on a whim by man, but the only being that can change this is God. If you do not believe in God in the same way, then you see this from a worldly view.

I don't see it as coming from God, but I see no reason that should be relevant to you. I only asked for integrity on the matter. If you want to step up and say "God says women aren't equal, so he gave men authority", I have no desire to counter that; the admission suffices for me. It's the pretense that there is equality in face of the disparity in authority that I find demeans you.

Question for you. Ghandi, did he have authority? Martin Luther King Jr., did he have authority. Mother Theresa, did she have authority? Confucius, did he have authority? Plato, did he have authority? Nelson Mandela, Albert Einstein, Madame Curie, William Shakespeare, Leonardo Da Vinci, Hellen Keller, Thomas Paine, Oprah, Martin Luther... I could go on and on. Was it authority that made them great?

In order: yes, yes, yes, I don't know, yes, yes, no (AFAIK), no, yes, probable yes, no, no, yes, yes. In each case that had authority, they were able to use that authority to more effectively leverage their influence. For example, Ghandi without an organized support system to listen to him is just a guy in jail. You would never have heard of him.
 
I meant that metaphorically, not literally. I apologize for not making that more clear. What I meant was that saying "Have you seen the messages out there? I'm much less worried about messages like this that occur millions of times than the other messages that are out there billions and trillions of times that do some real damage...." seemed to me like an attempt to tell me that the messages I was addressing were not worth worrying about by comparison, and I was pointing out that I rejected such logic. I should have clarified that.

Gotcha. Yes, we all have to value which messages are most important. I'm sure a top 10 list would differ greatly between any 2 people if randomly chosen.

Not saying the messages you worry about are not worth worrying about.
It does seem to me that the messages you tend to worry about are lower on my priority list, and vice versa.

In fact, we usually don't even agree on what that message is. c'est la vie

Metaphorically speaking, why worry about the mote when there is a beam to worry about.

It's all about perspective I guess. A mote may seem big to the owner, yet to someone else.

going_for_a_bike_ride-10842.gif
 
That goes the other way even more strongly. Attempts to set the fulcrum in the same place for everyone not only affects everyone's fulcrum, but affects those whose fulcrum most comfortably placed differently from yours in a manner that is particularly harsh.

Which is why it's important to me to do everything I can to have that fulcrum point be a place that God says is best for everyone. If it is moved by one group or another, somebody else will always be offended. This is why it's important to have God, who sees all and knows all help out with the process.

I also find it interesting that if a person moves from the seat on one side of the teeter totter; which is designed to be the most useful spot, balanced spot, as well as comfortable spot to another position why would you complain about discomfort and try to force others to move to make it more comfortable for you. That's your choice, why force everyone into a position of discomfort because of your choice to move?


I don't see it as coming from God, but I see no reason that should be relevant to you. I only asked for integrity on the matter. If you want to step up and say "God says women aren't equal, so he gave men authority", I have no desire to counter that; the admission suffices for me. It's the pretense that there is equality in face of the disparity in authority that I find demeans you.

Putting words in my mouth again? I never said what you put in quotes, you are just trying to interpret things in a negative light because it suits you.

Lets put it this way, and I'm sure you will disagree again.

Men = 1+3+4+4
Women = 6+2+2+2

Both have completely different numbers that go into their equation, and yet Men=Women.

Yes, in my opinion a belief in God factors into many things. If you don't believe in God, it's natural we will have differing views on things and value things differently.

You are free to feel my belief in God demeans me, and I am free to believe your lack of faith in God limits your view.


In order: yes, yes, yes, I don't know, yes, yes, no (AFAIK), no, yes, probable yes, no, no, yes, yes. In each case that had authority, they were able to use that authority to more effectively leverage their influence. For example, Ghandi without an organized support system to listen to him is just a guy in jail. You would never have heard of him.

I don't necessarily agree with some of your answers or feel any actual authority they had was either late in the game or made minimal difference in what they were able to accomplish. Ghandi's support system you mentioned was not there because of any actual authority he had. It would have been there regardless.
Martin Luther was an adversary of the pope and was excommunicated from the church. He may have started with some authority but much of his life's work was done without the backing of authority.

I say most, if not all of these individuals would have been just as influential and effective in their lives without direct authority.
Sure like you say, it can help, but it is a small side note and what they were able to accomplish had much more to do with who they are rather than any authority from a pope, government, or organization. In fact, they often were in opposition to some such group.
 
Um...is there going to be a pop quiz later? I suck at math.
 
There is something in this experience of Corrie ten Boom as explained here that I can vouch for, because it has common elements with my own experience. I could not doubt the truth of this story as she tells it, for unless she had experienced it, she could not have told it as she did.

So I did a google search, so I could tell my kids more about Corrie ten Boom, and found this:

[video]www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cfp51vLZb4

This is one of those "What? You too?" things. . . . .

I fixed the video link for you.

I appreciate the more in depth part of the story about the Nazi saying he had become a Christian and asking the victim of his cruelty for forgiveness...he wasn't just cruel, he was "the most cruel."
 
well, the way the story goes as I encountered it, Paul Bunyon and Babe were responsible for clearing about every forest there ever was, as well as stomping out the lakes of Minnesota, scraping up the debris that comprises Pike's Peak in an afternoon's tussle, and plowing the Grand Canyon on another. . . .

I suppose our notion of "pilgrim" usually entails some kind of faith/quest, but for a practical working man, getting the job done is just about as "sacred" as anything.

There is truth in that.
 
Helium walks into a bar and orders a beer. The bartender says, "Sorry, we don't serve noble gases here." Helium doesn't react.
 
Please define what "the cage" is exactly.

male logic is in itself a "cage" of sorts. . . . In general, our thinking, male or female, tends toward caginess.

Like an architect designing a building can conceive of something different, and carpenters can build it. . . . once the building is there, it shapes the humans who go in it in some ways for as long as it stands. So with ideas, once you accept them, and for as long as you use them, they are structures to your thinking, and can be a "cage".

One Brow likes his cage, and is not about to get out of it. If you buy his view, it'll be a cage for you, too. I don't think I have found a way out, really, I just keep trying to move the furniture around in mine. . . . .
 
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