I disagree. 16 best teams make the playoffs and the remaining 14 teams are the lottery teams. Those playoff teams get the money for being so. Lottery teams do not.
14th Tank Platoon
- Thread starter Primetime
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I disagree. 16 best teams make the playoffs and the remaining 14 teams are the lottery teams. Those playoff teams get the money for being so. Lottery teams do not.
If we hadn't won the last two meaningless games against orlando and new orleans we would be all alone in 3rd place. Barely winning against teams sitting players and trying to tank was really disappointing. I have been a jazz fan over 30 years but winning those games just makes me believe the jazz are not smart enough to know what they need to do. They will probably win against the lakers and drop even further.
For those people that say the jazz simply were too good to lose and had no shot at the number 1 or 2 pick I would remind you that after 20 percent of the season was played we were in last place. Moreover we are just a really bad team. If other teams were not actively resting players with marginal injuries we would be the worst team or tied with the bucks.
The jazz need to be very lucky in the lottery. Even if they are it is likely we will be picking high for several years.
For those people that say the jazz simply were too good to lose and had no shot at the number 1 or 2 pick I would remind you that after 20 percent of the season was played we were in last place. Moreover we are just a really bad team. If other teams were not actively resting players with marginal injuries we would be the worst team or tied with the bucks.
The jazz need to be very lucky in the lottery. Even if they are it is likely we will be picking high for several years.
#1 Spurs v. #8 Wizards
#2 Pacers v. #7 Grizzlies
#3 Heat v. #6 Bulls
#4 Warriors v. #5 Mavs
#1 Thunder v. #8 Bobcats
#2 Clippers v. #7 Nets
#3 Rockets v. #6 Raptors
#4 Blazers v. #5 Suns
This would be a cool format. The winner of the two brackets play each-other for the championship.
#2 Pacers v. #7 Grizzlies
#3 Heat v. #6 Bulls
#4 Warriors v. #5 Mavs
#1 Thunder v. #8 Bobcats
#2 Clippers v. #7 Nets
#3 Rockets v. #6 Raptors
#4 Blazers v. #5 Suns
This would be a cool format. The winner of the two brackets play each-other for the championship.
Woulda shoulda coulda... if we were that bad I bet BOS and ORL would have taken more drastic measure to make sure they are "worse".
This isn't a would of could have should have argument. Nobody needed 20 20 hindsight to know we should have lost those games. If we had lost boston could not have caught us. Orlando won games despite the fact that it put them in a tie with boston. If they are not tanking to stay ahead of boston they would not have tanked to stay ahead of us. In short I completely reject your argument.
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
But you also have to look at strength of schedule. The first 15 games were BRUTAL. I challenge you to find any other team that had a schedule as difficult, both in terms of home vs away games and quality of opponents. So if a team has an incredibly difficult schedule, playing more away games and more playoff-caliber teams for 15 games, what does that mean later on? Exactly the opposite: more home games and weaker opponents. And that's precisely what happened as the Jazz played at almost a .500 level through the end of February.
Jazz are NOT as bad as other teams. And they have rested players with marginal injuries just like other teams. Favors and Hayward could have played through their hip soreness - or come back much sooner - had the Jazz been in a playoff race. Personally, I think the Jazz are incredibly fortunate to be in the race for a 4-6 pick. Look at the rosters for Milwaukee, Philly, Boston, Orlando and LA and tell me if they are better than Utah's. And take into account legitimate injuries (Sanders, Kobe, etc.). Jazz COULD have been in the race for top-3, but it would have taken a Philly strategy of trading good starters for 2nd-round picks. Actually, I take that back. That strategy would have needed to happen much earlier. Jazz are only 5-21 since the all-star break. That's one of the worst records in the league.
All I'm saying is if we had won those games, it may have caused a chain of events which resulted in BOS and ORL losing games that they have now won (i.e., that ORL victory against Brooklyn might have been a loss).
#ChainReactions
Core 4 it does not matter that the early schedule was brutal. What mattered was the record. We were in last place. No hope of the playoffs and the season was already 20 percent done. We should have changed stategy right then and tried to get the first pick.
Moreover we are one of the worst teams. Phily gave away all of it players to ensure it would lose and we are only one game better than orlando. The bucks are the only team that might be worse than us at the beginning of the season and they beat us.
We should have actively tanked after starting the year so bad. Regardless, we absolutely should have tanked once we realized the 4th pick was ours to control. Then when orlando started winning so many late games we would have the third pick.
Moreover we are one of the worst teams. Phily gave away all of it players to ensure it would lose and we are only one game better than orlando. The bucks are the only team that might be worse than us at the beginning of the season and they beat us.
We should have actively tanked after starting the year so bad. Regardless, we absolutely should have tanked once we realized the 4th pick was ours to control. Then when orlando started winning so many late games we would have the third pick.
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think only Philly, Boston and Milwaukee have worse records during that span.
WE were once worried about teams such as Sacramento, Cleveland, Detroit and perhaps even New Orleans and New York. We went from a "worst-case" of #9 to a "worst-case" of #6. For every unfortunate "win" the Jazz have also had 2-3 come-from-ahead and close losses. Specifically, I remember us leading big and then losing to Atlanta, LA Clippers, Memphis. And close shaves against Indiana and Dallas (in March).
Your chain reaction argument does not hold water. At the time of the orlando debacle we had a worse record than boston. If we lose out boston could not have caught us.
Orlando is not tanking and won games despite the fact that boston was tanking. If orlando did not tank to stop boston they would not have tanked to stop us.
At a minimum we'd own the 4th pick and 99% chance we'd own the third. The one percent being that maybe orlando's owner hates the jazz and loves boston so it acted differently to our losing than it did to bostons.
Joe Bagadonuts
Well-Known Member
;-)
Doublea
Well-Known Member
I hope you realize that the jazz had a lot of injuries to players at the beginning of the year. We had no point guards and were playing d-league players with the second unit. I don't believe the Jazz are as bad as their record shows, I'm pretty baffled at how we've gone 5-21 since the all-star break. I would have never seen that coming.
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
Yes, it DOES MATTER. YOU play the same schedule regardless of when you play those teams. So if you have a BRUTAL schedule early, then the schedule will be much easier later. Fact is, we had played MORE away games, MORE games against ELITE teams. So the schedule AFTER that means FEWER away games, FEWER games against elite teams. You also have to take into account Trey's insertion into the lineup. As much as Trey has struggled, he and Diante Garrett have been HUGE upgrades over JLIII and Tinsley.
"Tanking" as you are implying is losing on purpose. Sorry, I think 99% of owners, GM's, coaches and players would never consider such a tactic. In fact, I'm also an "old timer" and can say I've only seen ONE such instance (Golden State). Boston is pretty suspicious this season but I have not watched their losses so I can't say for certain. Philly has tanked due to personnel. Milwaukee has been ripped apart by the Sanders mess. Again, look at our personnel compared to the other bottom teams. ONLY way to finish bottom 1-2 would have been to somehow lose/trade 2 of our main players. Would you have supported Lindsey giving up Favors and Burks (or Hayward) for 2nd round picks?
Besides, to assume Wiggins,Parker (if he declares) and Embiid will be superstars is assuming a LOT. Look at the top-3 over the past several drafts. Sure, there have been stars, but there have been outright busts: Derrick Williams, Thabeet, Beasley, Oden, Morrison. There have been also been players who have been decent, but not great: Bargnani, Mayo, Turner, Marvin Williams, Kanter, Favors. Some of these had nearly the same hype as Embiid and Parker.
Conversely, every draft has had players picked outside the top-3 that have become all-stars. Jazz could very well end up with a better player at #5 than the players everyone is saying should go #2 or #3.
Have you ever heard of the butterfly effect?
To say that we would be 99% third is just wishful thinking.
Every team has injuries and losses you have to take them as they come. So after 20 percent of the season is over and your in last place you should change tactics.
Phily was winning too many games so they traded everyone at the deadline for a bag of chips in an effort to lose. You can't tell me that losing was not intentional. Gms and coaches not players should try to lose. Players play to win it is in their dna. Gms and coaches have to be smart enough to lose when necessary. Even golden states playera tried to win. Mark jacskon just benched any player who made more than 1 shot.
Regardless of whether you believe we were to good to compete for the first pick, the fact is we were in forth place with less than 10 gamea remaining and only 2or 3 gamea out of third. We aren't that good. We could have easily grabbed the 3rd pick by losing out all games from orlando on.
If phily hadn't traded everyone and the bucks hadn't emploded who knows.
Phily was winning too many games so they traded everyone at the deadline for a bag of chips in an effort to lose. You can't tell me that losing was not intentional. Gms and coaches not players should try to lose. Players play to win it is in their dna. Gms and coaches have to be smart enough to lose when necessary. Even golden states playera tried to win. Mark jacskon just benched any player who made more than 1 shot.
Regardless of whether you believe we were to good to compete for the first pick, the fact is we were in forth place with less than 10 gamea remaining and only 2or 3 gamea out of third. We aren't that good. We could have easily grabbed the 3rd pick by losing out all games from orlando on.
If phily hadn't traded everyone and the bucks hadn't emploded who knows.
I saw the stupid movie with the time machine when the guy steped on a butterfly or dragonfly and it changes everything in the future. I also saw the equally stupid movie called butterfly effect.
Your still wrong. It cannot be argued that if utah lost all games from orlando on out they would own the fourth pick at a minimum. No team could have caught them.
I argue the jazz would actually own the third pick because I don't see orlando reacting differently to utah losing than it did to boston losing.
Why do you think orlando would have actually lost the last 3 games they won because utah lost those two? Which outcomes would have been different?
Your still wrong. It cannot be argued that if utah lost all games from orlando on out they would own the fourth pick at a minimum. No team could have caught them.
I argue the jazz would actually own the third pick because I don't see orlando reacting differently to utah losing than it did to boston losing.
Why do you think orlando would have actually lost the last 3 games they won because utah lost those two? Which outcomes would have been different?
Doublea
Well-Known Member
Man you're such a selfish fan.
Read this:
If a butterfly flapping its wings can cause a hurricane, is it impossible to think that a win in Utah wouldn't cause them to "tank harder" than it would have otherwise?