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My argument for the death penalty...

Kinda contradictin your own self there, aincha, Biley? Bein falsely convicted aint the same as bein executed. How can ya say they "woulda been put to death" when, in fact, they were freed? There are so many devoted anti-death penalty advocates out there, doin research 24/7 on a volunteer basis, and so many procedural safeguards involved that ya could seriously argue that it is extremely unlikely, in this day and age, that any death penalty would EVER be carried out on an innocent person.

Yeah, I don't know why all the innocent people on Death Row even sweat it. All the safeguards and all. And if they do wind up with a bullet in the head, that's just the breaks. No sense worrying about a couple mistakes when you consider all the good the death penalty does. Besides, they could have just as easily died in their car or eating a steak.
 
This is an especially ridiculous argument given that this article appeared in the times just yesterday:



This aint no DP case neither, but even if it wuz, on what grounds should the guy be released? You're the bottom-feeder, you know rules of evidence doncha? Why would the judge say this: "The judge refused to let the jury hear from Mr. O’Toole, saying his account was unreliable hearsay." If the judge was wrong about that, why wasn't he reversed on appeal? What is it these days? Trial by newspaper, with a son's belief bein the standard for guilt/innocence?
 
Kicky, your sophistic strawman tactics don't persuade nobuddy but fools (which is who you're apparently appealin to, includin your own damn self). Addin in your ad hom attacks on my sanity don't exactly enhance the credibiity of your "impartial moderator" posture neither, except, again, mebbe in the eyes of fools.
 
Why would you even begin to think that? I wuz talkin about death penalty cases, not "all convictions."

Sorry aint, I assumed since the entire thread was about the death penalty that you could fairly assume that when I said 'convictions' that meant 'capital convictions.' Then again, I must learn never to assume such things considering the audience.

As for the article, the point is merely that even when clemency boards unanimously recommend that someone have their sentence commuted arbitrary and non-transparent factors can conspire to ensure that a person is not released. That is probative to your underlying claim.

As for your opinion regarding my impartiality, you have the same recourse as everyone else: you may complain to an administrator. Given, however, that I have yet to vote on a single reported post of yours I have the feeling it will be difficult for even you to conceive of a way in which you have been harmed by me. I was, however, greatly amused by you calling me a fool and then in the same post railing against the use of ad hominems.
 
What is it these days? Trial by newspaper, with a son's belief bein the standard for guilt/innocence?

"Mr. Kempfert is now certain that his father, William Macumber, is innocent. Arizona’s clemency board, citing Mr. Kempfert’s “very moving testimony” and saying there had been “a miscarriage of justice,” unanimously recommended last year that Mr. Macumber be freed."

Hmmm, well, what more would ya want, I ax ya?
 
Sorry aint, I assumed since the entire thread was about the death penalty that you could fairly assume that when I said 'convictions' that meant 'capital convictions.' Then again, I must learn never to assume such things considering the audience.

Heh, "considerin the audience," eh? The audience, if not an utter fool, would consider the (non-DP) story you cited as support for your rant as givin an indication of just what "convictions" you had in mind, I spect.

But don't go lettin them kinda small details dissuade you from tryin to beef up your fragile ego, eh, Kicky?
 
Heh, "considerin the audience," eh? The audience, if not an utter fool, would consider the (non-DP) story you cited as support for your rant as givin an indication of just what "convictions" you had in mind, I spect.

But don't go lettin them kinda small details dissuade you from tryin to beef up your fragile ego, eh, Kicky?

You gotta love aint. He focuses on any tiny little battle he can potentially win and lays claim to the war. If he was at Waterloo, he would have killed the Drummer Boy and put himself up for a medal.
 
Hmmm, well, let's see here. On the one hand:

"Mr. Macumber’s former wife, now known as Carol Kempfert, said he was a dangerous sociopath who deserved to die in prison. She denied making up his confession and tampering with the evidence used to convict him.

It is her former husband, she said, who is a pathological liar. “I was in law enforcement for almost 20 years, and no one came close to being able to manipulate like Bill,” she said. “This man could sell water to a drowning person.”


In the course of a half-hour conversation, Ms. Kempfert accused Mr. Macumber of terrible and disturbing crimes beyond the killings in the desert. Asked if he deserved clemency, she said, “Absolutely not.”

“Actually,” she added, “I think he’s lucky. If he had been caught sooner, he would have gotten the death penalty.”

==

OK, that the cop's (ex-wife's) story, eh? What else?

"The jury did hear about two kinds of physical evidence — a partial palm print and bullet casings — that prosecutors said connected Mr. Macumber to the killings. " Hmm, physical evidence, eh? But, LOOKY HERE!:

“I can fully see how my mother could have set him up and framed him,” Mr. Kempfert said. “She had access to the evidence. She was doing fingerprint courses at the time.”

So the cop "coulda" framed him, eh? Was there ever a case where that wasn't a (at least theoretical) possibility? But this case is different, I spoze, cause the convict's own son thinks he coulda been framed.
 
Don't git me wrong. The skank coulda framed his sorry ***, for all I know, or for all anyone knows. Is there any actual "evidence" that she did? None that the newspaper reported.

If I'm a governor, entrusted to enforce the laws and sentences of the state and it's courts, am I gunna release every prisoner whose son thinks he coulda been framed, without any actual evidence that he wuz? I don't think so! Homey don't play dat.
 
Not really surprisin, I spoze, that the son's belief in his Pappy's framin wuz instilled by a guy who's sole "job" is to spot and expose "wrongful convictions." The guy is gunna look bad if he don't drum up some "wrongful convictions" to shout about, I spect.

"Ronald Kempfert was a young boy in 1975 when his father was sent to prison for murder, and they had no contact for 28 years. Then, in 2003, Mr. Kempfert heard from a lawyer who had been looking into the case. “Your father is innocent,” said the lawyer, Larry A. Hammond. “And we’re pretty sure your mother framed him.”

"...the Arizona Justice Project at the Sandra Day O’Connor College of Law at Arizona State University, which was founded by Mr. Hammond and works to overturn wrongful convictions, has represented Mr. Macumber since 2000."


Well, this "activist" bottom feeder is "pretty sure" the cop framed his client, eh? Again, too bad they couldn't provide any evidence beyond subjective belief.

"Ms. Kempfert and her son no longer speak. Ronald Kempfert, who took his stepfather’s last name when he was a child, is in the process of changing it back to Macumber."

I can see the strategy session at the "project" now, eh?: "OK, here's what we do. First we turn the kid against him mom, and then we haul him before the clemency board to make an emotional appeal. Them chumps will fall for it. They do every time."
 
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What about the pain and suffering the "victim's" victim(s) suffered?
I've had it up to HERE with all the bullsh$# about pain and suffering inflicted upon a condemned murderer. You know what? If you don't want to die by lethal injection, firing squad, electric chair, etc., there's an easy solution: DON'T COMMIT FIRST-DEGREE MURDER.

I do not condone torture. But any forced death is going to inflict some pain. I think the US has done a great job of minimizing that. We no longer hang people. The guillotine is not used. But bloody hell, it takes quite a lot to sentence someone to death: violent, pre-meditated murder. There is only so far you can go in minimizing suffering. And certainly the convicted murderer had no concern for how much his victim suffered.

Here in CA, the murderer of an 8-yr girl just got sentenced to life. Abused the little girl and then stuffed her victim in a suitcase and tossed it into an irrigation pond like yesterday's trash. What the "F" is wrong with this country? The woman who did it should be executed. Let's hope one of the inmates does the job the bleeding heart prosecutor and judge were too timid to do.

Hey I'm not trying to take a stance on anything here really, if he asked to be executed by firing squad I don't really care what happens to him. He made his bed, he gets to sleep in it.

I do however have a problem with cruel and unusual punishment being handed down by the Federal and Local Government, and imo shooting a man in the chest and watching him suffer for several minutes is both cruel and unusual. We don't live in an eye for an eye society, it's part of what makes this a great nation we live in.
 
You gotta love aint. He focuses on any tiny little battle he can potentially win and lays claim to the war. If he was at Waterloo, he would have killed the Drummer Boy and put himself up for a medal.

+1

I have a hard time enjoying posts from people who argue simply for the sake of arguing
Then again that makes me wonder why I am on here at times
 
Hey I'm not trying to take a stance on anything here really, if he asked to be executed by firing squad I don't really care what happens to him. He made his bed, he gets to sleep in it.

I do however have a problem with cruel and unusual punishment being handed down by the Federal and Local Government, and imo shooting a man in the chest and watching him suffer for several minutes is both cruel and unusual. We don't live in an eye for an eye society, it's part of what makes this a great nation we live in.

Yeah, I heard that they live up to 30 to 40 minutes after being shot in the heart.

So Billy, what would you like to do with the guy that killed the 4 year old last month? Give him a nice cushy cell to live in? Sorry, but people like that do not deserve to live. But to be fair, I suppose that maybe he really didn't kill the kid. You know, perhaps somebody else broke into the house and did all those terrible things. I mean, we really don't have any way to be 100% positive, right? Maybe we shouldn't have even arrested the step dad, I mean, he could be innocently sitting behind bars right now. Oh, the horror.
 
Yeah, I heard that they live up to 30 to 40 minutes after being shot in the heart.

So Billy, what would you like to do with the guy that killed the 4 year old last month? Give him a nice cushy cell to live in? Sorry, but people like that do not deserve to live. But to be fair, I suppose that maybe he really didn't kill the kid. You know, perhaps somebody else broke into the house and did all those terrible things. I mean, we really don't have any way to be 100% positive, right? Maybe we shouldn't have even arrested the step dad, I mean, he could be innocently sitting behind bars right now. Oh, the horror.

I like that you're trying to paint a prison cell as a nice place to live. If only we could all be so lucky as to be caged like a dog.
 
Yeah, I heard that they live up to 30 to 40 minutes after being shot in the heart.

So Billy, what would you like to do with the guy that killed the 4 year old last month? Give him a nice cushy cell to live in? Sorry, but people like that do not deserve to live. But to be fair, I suppose that maybe he really didn't kill the kid. You know, perhaps somebody else broke into the house and did all those terrible things. I mean, we really don't have any way to be 100% positive, right? Maybe we shouldn't have even arrested the step dad, I mean, he could be innocently sitting behind bars right now. Oh, the horror.

If I'm hearing you correctly, we should only kill the guilty ones. I don't know why they never thought of that.
 
If I'm hearing you correctly, we should only kill the guilty ones. I don't know why they never thought of that.

Yeah, if we could only prove that Gardner is/was guilty. Also, I guess there is no way to prove 100% that the Sloops were/are guilty either. Perhaps we should let them go.
 
You gotta love aint. He focuses on any tiny little battle he can potentially win and lays claim to the war. If he was at Waterloo, he would have killed the Drummer Boy and put himself up for a medal.

Exactly. His entire posting style involves finding a single sentence he disagrees with and responding several times in a row to that single issue rather than addressing full points. He then declares that you have been thoroughly outdebated while conceding all the substance.

Lather. Rinse. Repeat.
 
I betcha Kicky can out-swagger Biley, but it's gunna be a close call, I figure. I guess I'll reserve judgment until the contest is over.
 
All evidence regarding how long it takes somone to die or the amount of pain inflicted through the guillotine is inherently speculative and/or anecdotal....we're really guessing and speculating...an educated guess is still, inherently, a guess.

Kicky, I seen where "New Scientist" was reporting on a 1991 study conducted on rats, which concluded that rats have enough oxygen stored (present) in their brain to last 2.7 seconds when decapitated. But they didn't give the full details, and I bet you anythng that some rats lasted 2.71 seconds, and some mebbe only 2.69. They don't KNOW, with 100% certainty, what the PRECISE amount of time will be for any given rat will be, I betcha. Just a speculative guess, that's all.

But that aint even the half of it! Based on those studies, they "estimate" that humans last 7 seconds. Did ya catch that little trick there? They said "estimate!" HAHAHAHAHA. In other words PURE SPECULATION. I bet it could be 7 minutes, 7 hours, or even 7 days. 7 seconds is just a wild-*** GUESS, that's all.

Who do these quacks think they're foolin, I wonder?
 
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ya'll really should read that book I mentioned above, parts of it are a real HOOT

From the chapter "A Head is a Terrible Thing to Waste," about plastic-surgery instruction on cadavers:

The human head is of the same approximate size and weight as a roaster chicken. I have never before had the occasion to make the comparison, for never before today have I seen a head in a roasting pan. But here are forty of them, one per pan, resting face-up on what looks to be a small pet-food bowl. The heads are for plastic surgeons, two per head, to practice on....
 
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