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Yesterday - Bundy Ranch

Also, in regards to the latest Bundy revelations, **** Cliven Bundy. I don't know if he's a racist but the guy is definitely a bigot of the highest order. His lack of belief in self determination for a segment of the population says to me that he does NOT believe in the tenets of the US Constitution. He does not believe in inalienable rights or in life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. His argument that the "Government" is somehow out of line in this current scenario loses all credibility in my eyes when he speaks of one person owning another human being as a viable option.

You either believe in the truth and the rights of man, all men, or you don't.
 
You still missing the point here? 56 pages and you still don't see anything other than black and white(see the sly racist joke there... I'll write it out since I don't feel like you're going to get it)?

Yes, he's breaking the law. No ****, sherlock. I've already said as much in this thread.

Should the law be a law?
Should the Federal government be enforcing this law, or should it be the states rights?
If any government is at the helm, should they be bringing in armed military and special forces units?

Not necessarily out of the three above, pick any one route and follow it to it's end. You'll see issues everywhere.

Maybe I'm going to far... maybe you just consider yourself a redneck and take offense to me imaging all rednecks as racists.

If that's the case, my apologies. I'll throw out the disclaimer that not all rednecks are racist, just the vast majority of the ones I've met.

That being said, he has more of a right to it than the federal government does to tell him no.

I actually basically agree with most of this post, except the last line. . . .
 
I actually basically agree with most of this post, except the last line. . . .

So, the fact that his family has been there using and improving the land after the federal government told his family to go homestead it for 140 years means less than chumps on capital hill deciding that BLM should manage the land?
 
I would recommend watching the Daily Show Jon Stewarts take on the hypocrisy of the right is so spot on. This is just a fake drummed up right wing wackjob with his American flag pins talking about how he doesn't recognize the United States of America. He deserve to be behind bars he has lost court cases. He has chosen not to pay his cattle grazing fees. Jon Stewart rightly points out that our founders passed the whiskey act of 1791 and then enforced with force. Quit watching Fox News and the $^$% that they are cramming down your throats.
 
So, the fact that his family has been there using and improving the land after the federal government told his family to go homestead it for 140 years means less than chumps on capital hill deciding that BLM should manage the land?

He doesn't own the land. He has chosen not to pay his fees. I don't think he should profit off of his lack of dignity. He is worse than a welfare rancher he is a criminal. He is the Sidney Lowe of ranchers.
 
I would recommend watching the Daily Show Jon Stewarts take on the hypocrisy of the right is so spot on. This is just a fake drummed up right wing wackjob with his American flag pins talking about how he doesn't recognize the United States of America. He deserve to be behind bars he has lost court cases. He has chosen not to pay his cattle grazing fees. Jon Stewart rightly points out that our founders passed the whiskey act of 1791 and then enforced with force. Quit watching Fox News and the $^$% that they are cramming down your throats.

Oof...
 
Is there any possible way that his racist opinions and his opinion on government overstepping and oppression are linked? I see a lot of posters trying to separate the two, but they are in fact closely connected.
 
Is there any possible way that his racist opinions and his opinion on government overstepping and oppression are linked? I see a lot of posters trying to separate the two, but they are in fact closely connected.

I can see a possible disatisfaction with the government being fueled by what he feels is preferential treatment.
 
Also, in regards to the latest Bundy revelations, **** Cliven Bundy. I don't know if he's a racist but the guy is definitely a bigot of the highest order. His lack of belief in self determination for a segment of the population says to me that he does NOT believe in the tenets of the US Constitution. He does not believe in inalienable rights or in life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. His argument that the "Government" is somehow out of line in this current scenario loses all credibility in my eyes when he speaks of one person owning another human being as a viable option.

You either believe in the truth and the rights of man, all men, or you don't.

Repd.


And I'm ignoring Mission because he's not taken the time to read the thread.. not that I blame him for that.
(Won't respond to any of his posts from here on, though)
 
[size/HUGE] fixed [/size];813877 said:
Is there some sort of news aggregate I can go to if I want to catch up on this story? Anybody have any links they'd suggest?

The Las Vegas Review has had a couple articles on this. Then it is just scattered. LA times, Fox News, NY Post...
 
I would recommend watching the Daily Show Jon Stewarts take on the hypocrisy of the right is so spot on. This is just a fake drummed up right wing wackjob with his American flag pins talking about how he doesn't recognize the United States of America. He deserve to be behind bars he has lost court cases. He has chosen not to pay his cattle grazing fees. Jon Stewart rightly points out that our founders passed the whiskey act of 1791 and then enforced with force. Quit watching Fox News and the $^$% that they are cramming down your throats.

And I get that. All of that. I'm the last one you need to worry about watching Fox news. Ok.. maybe Thriller. But still.

The whiskey act was enforced with force. But should it have been? If in 1791 the country had already gone through a Vietnam, Korean conflict, two Iraq conflicts, and a war on terror with pictures of dead babies and civilians from each and every one of those wars/police actions, would John Q. Public still have rolled over and just let it happen?

But wait.. even in 1791 they didn't just let it happen. 4 rebels, 13 soldiers, and 2 civilians lost their lives over it.

It's an entirely different world now. To compare the two just doesn't quite work. I love Jon Stewart, and I think he's a million times better than Colbert.. but that doesn't mean he's always right.
 
He doesn't own the land. He has chosen not to pay his fees. I don't think he should profit off of his lack of dignity. He is worse than a welfare rancher he is a criminal. He is the Sidney Lowe of ranchers.

How can we own the land? Native American's were here first, why don't they own it? They, too, have a preemptive right that's not being observed.
 
How can we own the land? Native American's were here first, why don't they own it? They, too, have a preemptive right that's not being observed.

You are correct about the Native Americans they are truly the ones who have been screwed in our pursuit of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. But, since we the United States govt purchased the land from Mexico. Then the state of Nevada has turned over to the Federal government and BLM most managing rights.
 
You are correct about the Native Americans they are truly the ones who have been screwed in our pursuit of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. But, since we the United States govt purchased the land from Mexico. Then the state of Nevada has turned over to the Federal government and BLM most managing rights.

But should they have? Why did they?
 
So, the fact that his family has been there using and improving the land after the federal government told his family to go homestead it for 140 years means less than chumps on capital hill deciding that BLM should manage the land?

Sorry, I was continuing my above post in edit mode while letting that first line stand. If you care, go to my little rant in the LTE today for a basic framework of my point of view. Briefly, I realize that "property" and precedents are are negotiable in politics. Things change, and governments change, and "ownership" or "rights" change.

Ambrose Bierce crystalized this concept in his Devil's Dictionary, I think it was his definition of speech. . .. "the music with which we charm the serpents that guard another man's treasure".

I actually support the priority of government, in it's ideal manifestation as described by Lincoln with the phrase "government of the people, by the people and for the people", but I realize we have a huge tradition of injustices to practically every minority that has gotten in the way of "progress" as envisioned by our movers/shakers in our entire history.

A reading of the history of the Cherokee nation would be just one example. My kids understand their mothers' belief that they are descendants of about sixth generations removed cherokees on that trail of tears.

I support good management of our lands, and even private lands, for the benefit of all life and for future generations. . . . but I rage about what I see as government policy hijacked by politically-connected interests.

I could rage about a lot of stuff. I worked for a corporation and saw it's owner deliberately take it into bankruptcy to shed over a hundred million in debt owed mostly to 401k accounts managed by Wells Fargo, and then buy it back at court auction because, conveniently his buddies in the BLM had just sued him for a Billion dollars and nobody else would touch his company. After the auction was over, the BLM dropped the lawsuit. . . .

I would characterize the BLM's dealings with Bundy as abuse of power, corrupt, and another outrage. It serves no good purpose to apply science or policy arbitrarily to individual cases for reasons of favoring other parties. . . . .It also serves no good purpose to move ranchers off grazing lands that they have used for generations, generally, because I believe such use is actually beneficial in several aspects.

But Bundy's rights originated in public land policy. A lot of folks don't understand he is objecting to arbitrary edicts, not public policy. I doubt even Cliven Bundy is correctly understanding what he is actually doing. . . . He might think he "owns" the land, he might think it should be administered by the State of Nevada or Clark County Nevada, but his position was taken because he was arbitrarily attacked by the BLM over a false claim of detriment to some turtles.
 
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And I get that. All of that. I'm the last one you need to worry about watching Fox news. Ok.. maybe Thriller. But still.

The whiskey act was enforced with force. But should it have been? If in 1791 the country had already gone through a Vietnam, Korean conflict, two Iraq conflicts, and a war on terror with pictures of dead babies and civilians from each and every one of those wars/police actions, would John Q. Public still have rolled over and just let it happen?

But wait.. even in 1791 they didn't just let it happen. 4 rebels, 13 soldiers, and 2 civilians lost their lives over it.

It's an entirely different world now. To compare the two just doesn't quite work. I love Jon Stewart, and I think he's a million times better than Colbert.. but that doesn't mean he's always right.

I just don't want to sit around and see people using false nostalgia to work up misguided false patriotism. The United States has always had problems I just can't stand the right drumming up this false sense of entitlement to a false glazed over past.
 
I just don't want to sit around and see people using false nostalgia to work up misguided false patriotism. The United States has always had problems I just can't stand the right drumming up this false sense of entitlement to a false glazed over past.

I get that too, but remember that a blind squirrel is gonna find a nut some day. Just because on the immediate surface he's a cry baby that doesn't think he should have to follow the same rules as the rest of us doesn't mean there isn't an injustice being done. But that's why this isn't going to lead to a revolution, just feelings of resentment that maybe, someday, compounded with something a little less foggy, might lead to a revolution.

It's like an oreo.

Whiney little cattle rancher hijacking the price of beef WAY up(have you seen beef prices lately?) while whining about grazing fees/cattle head limits
Whole mess of civil liberties, states rights, and other legit issues in the middle
Racist redneck hillbilly hoping to get as much support from anyone and everyone possible with as little effort as possible
 
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