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Yesterday - Bundy Ranch

VINYLONE said:
Some of us have them. Paradigm shifts. Sometimes these shifts are part of a larger change within ourselves that affects our outlook on everything and sometimes it's just a change in perspective. While I don't have a reference for the level of self-absoprtion you had, I do understand thinking in terms of the greater good. The changes in outlook I've experienced I rarely vocalize but I understand where you're coming from. Was there a catalyst for the change?
Click to expand...

Definitely.

Meeting, in person, the people I was displacing.. witnessing, first hand, the realities of stepping on what I past viewed were weak, but now view are critical to sustaining my/your life. I was an ***. I want to change things.

The catalyst may not appeal to you, but it was Bundy and his treatment... but now I see where help is needed abundantly..
 
PKM said:
Can we get back to the point?

That there are the most powerful politicians in America conspiring to run these ranchers off the land for profit...

If you can do it transparently, fine. But to do this, is disgusting;

- Have law firms masquerading as environmentalist groups sue the BLM to protect a species
- Have BLM do the dirty work to act on said lawsuit and force ranchers to reduce herds
- Sell the non-clouded federal water rights and the land to the highest bidder (with an already-arranged agreement to remove the 'issue' of the endangered species
- rinse and repeat

Every one of you that don't care that this is going on (let's just assume for a moment I'm right.. I am) don't deserve the freedoms you do enjoy.
Click to expand...

What freedoms? The freedom to dictate to the government how to manage it's own land at the same time misusing the land for 20+ years, without paying a penny for the privilege?

No wonder the BLM wants to just give it to the turtles. The management will be easier and the monetary return the same as it is now.
 
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PKM said:
Can we get back to the point?

That there are the most powerful politicians in America conspiring to run these ranchers off the land for profit...

If you can do it transparently, fine. But to do this, is disgusting;

- Have law firms masquerading as environmentalist groups sue the BLM to protect a species
- Have BLM do the dirty work to act on said lawsuit and force ranchers to reduce herds
- Sell the non-clouded federal water rights and the land to the highest bidder (with an already-arranged agreement to remove the 'issue' of the endangered species
- rinse and repeat

Every one of you that don't care that this is going on (let's just assume for a moment I'm right.. I am) don't deserve the freedoms you do enjoy.
Click to expand...

Why should we assume that the original arrangement between the Bundy family and the government was the correct one in the first place. The Mojave Desert is one of the hottest and driest places on Earth. It hardly seems ideal for cattle ranching. Nevermind that grazing and water rights have been hotly disputed from the very beginnings of the American West. Similar tactics as you describe above may have resulted in the Bundy family acquiring the grazing rights they are squatting on today.

And is there some reason to expect the government should continue to do business with Bundy, in terms wholly in his favor, in perpetuity? What about his other vendors and customers: laborers, equipment providers, fuel providers, slaughterhouses, etc? They change the prices and terms of their business with him all the time. Are they party to the conspiracy you outline above? Why does he expect his forage provider to do any different?
 
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VINYLONE said:
What does this exactly mean? Barring your participation on this message board, what other opportunities in your daily life do you have to be a dick?
Click to expand...

Waking up in the morning?
 
r_u_s_t_b_u_c_k_e_t said:
What freedoms? The freedom to dictate to the government how to manage it's own land at the same time misusing the land for 20+ years, without paying a penny for the privilege?

No wonder the BLM wants to just give it to the turtles. The management will be easier and the monetary return the same as it is now.
Click to expand...

Wow..
 
r_u_s_t_b_u_c_k_e_t said:
Why should we assume that the original arrangement between the Bundy family and the government was the correct one in the first place. The Mojave Desert is one of the hottest and driest places on Earth. It hardly seems ideal for cattle ranching. Nevermind that grazing and water rights have been hotly disputed from the very beginnings of the American West. Similar tactics as you describe above may have resulted in the Bundy family acquiring the grazing rights they are squatting on today.

And is there some reason to expect the government should continue to do business with Bundy, in terms wholly in his favor, in perpetuity? What about his other vendors and customers: laborers, equipment providers, fuel providers, slaughterhouses, etc? They change the prices and terms of their business with him all the time. Are they party to the conspiracy you outline above? Why does he expect his forage provider to do any different?
Click to expand...

I can't imagine anyone reading that first sentence not being truly dumbfounded by it.

The second paragraph is an example of someone jumping into a thread late and completely missing the point being made within it.
 
r_u_s_t_b_u_c_k_e_t said:
What freedoms? The freedom to dictate to the government how to manage it's own land at the same time misusing the land for 20+ years, without paying a penny for the privilege?

No wonder the BLM wants to just give it to the turtles. The management will be easier and the monetary return the same as it is now.
Click to expand...

You think the BLM wants to give the land to the turtles. lol
 
Man I can't believe you are still defending this clown, PKM? Now you are threatening people with being a dick. Seriously, this guy should travel back in time about 150 years ago because that is where he belongs. The guy never owned the land and he was screwing people/taxpayers out of a lot of money. This isn't about freedom it is about money. Which is usually the case with most unprincipled folks. No information is going to change the fact that the guy didn't own the land.

A definition for you.

Patriot---One who loves their country, and supports its AUTHORITY and INTERESTS. This guy doesn't believe in the existence of the U.S. government. You can hate the gov't all you want but it truly exists. What this guy is a hypocrite and a tax cheat? I don't care what secret information you have.

Cliven Bundy Facts:
I. He and his Family has never owned the Disputed Land.
1. Bundy Claims his family has owned the land since 1877, before the BLM existed and before grazing permits were required.
2. However, Clark County property records show Bundy bought the 160 acre ranch in 1948 and included no rights to BLM land.
The Bundys didn't start grazing on the land until 1954.
3. The land is part of the Las Vegas Grazing District, established under the Taylor Grazing Act on Nov. 3, 1936. This was 10 years before the Bundys owned the land.
4. The BLM was founded in 1946, two years before they bought the land.

II. $16 Million Profits From Federal Land.
Why can't Bundy use his 160 acres for grazing?
Answer: money. Bundy is using Federal Land to graze cattle because he wants more cows and 160 acres isn't big enough to handle all the cows he wants. With Federal Land, he can have more cows and make more money.
Nevada land only supports one cow per 20 acres so he can only graze about 8 cows on his land. But using Federal Land, Bundy is grazing an extra 3,387 head of cattle. (We know this because Bundy owns $1.1 million in grazing fees over a 20 year period. So $1.35 per cow per month works out to 3,395 cows.)
Net Profit per cow is running about $250. That means Bundy is making an extra $848,765 a year by using Federal Land. Even if he paid the government grazing fee, his profit would still be $818,765.
Over the 20 years of the dispute, Bundy has made $16 million.

III. Ranch Welfare. Bundy has received $8.2 million in services from the Tax Payers.
1. Bundy Refuses to pay $1.35 per head, per month to graze his cattle on Federal Land saying the land belongs to the states.
2. If the land in question were state land, Nevada charges $15.50, so instead of owing $1.1 million to the Federal Government, Bundy would owe Nevada $12.6 million. Private land runs $14.50 and $20 per head, so private costs would be between $11.8 and $16.3 million.
3. Even if it was State Land, Bundy couldn't graze it, because the Nevada withdrew all grazing rights in the area in 1993.
4. The government spends millions maintaining the land and keeping it suitable for grazing. The Government routinely kills predators, removes trees to create more grazing land, drills wells, builds dams, controls weeds spread by cattle, fights fires and builds roads to access the land. The Government Accounting Office, it cost the government $8.10 per head to maintain the land. That means that, Bundy is receiving $8.2 million in services courtesy of the Tax Payers.

Section-I
https://www.clarkcountynv.gov/depts/dcp/Pages/Curre...
https://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/04/22/property-rec...
https://www.8newsnow.com/story/25301551/bundys-ance...
https://www.8newsnow.com/story/25302186/an-abbrevia...
Section-II
https://www.agweb.com/article/cattle_feeding_profit...
https://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_cows_can_you_gr...
Section-III
https://beefmagazine.com/business/rising-lease-rate...
https://mesquitelocalnews.com/sections/opinion/edit...
https://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/grazing.html
https://www.nass.usda.gov/Charts_and_Maps/Grazing_F...
https://npaper-wehaa.com/western-livestock-journal/...
https://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_22704766/federal...
 
PKM said:
Definitely.

Meeting, in person, the people I was displacing.. witnessing, first hand, the realities of stepping on what I past viewed were weak, but now view are critical to sustaining my/your life. I was an ***. I want to change things.

The catalyst may not appeal to you, but it was Bundy and his treatment... but now I see where help is needed abundantly..
Click to expand...

Well it is nice that you realized you have been an *** in your life and you want to change the way you treat people. I just think there are better causes than this guy. Hell even Sean Hannity is running away from this guy.
 
^^^ lol?

*edit

Your first, lengthy, worthless post is what I was lol'ing about.

Your post was so bad that I actually used the term "lol". I need a shower.
 
cowhide said:
Well it is nice that you realized you have been an *** in your life and you want to change the way you treat people. I just think there are better causes than this guy. Hell even Sean Hannity is running away from this guy.
Click to expand...

How can these replies persist in light of how many times I have explained that Bundy is not the 'cause' here?
 
cowhide said:
Man I can't believe you are still defending this clown, PKM? Now you are threatening people with being a dick. Seriously, this guy should travel back in time about 150 years ago because that is where he belongs. The guy never owned the land and he was screwing people/taxpayers out of a lot of money. This isn't about freedom it is about money. Which is usually the case with most unprincipled folks. No information is going to change the fact that the guy didn't own the land.

A definition for you.

Patriot---One who loves their country, and supports its AUTHORITY and INTERESTS. This guy doesn't believe in the existence of the U.S. government. You can hate the gov't all you want but it truly exists. What this guy is a hypocrite and a tax cheat? I don't care what secret information you have.

Cliven Bundy Facts:
I. He and his Family has never owned the Disputed Land.
1. Bundy Claims his family has owned the land since 1877, before the BLM existed and before grazing permits were required.
2. However, Clark County property records show Bundy bought the 160 acre ranch in 1948 and included no rights to BLM land.
The Bundys didn't start grazing on the land until 1954.
3. The land is part of the Las Vegas Grazing District, established under the Taylor Grazing Act on Nov. 3, 1936. This was 10 years before the Bundys owned the land.
4. The BLM was founded in 1946, two years before they bought the land.

II. $16 Million Profits From Federal Land.
Why can't Bundy use his 160 acres for grazing?
Answer: money. Bundy is using Federal Land to graze cattle because he wants more cows and 160 acres isn't big enough to handle all the cows he wants. With Federal Land, he can have more cows and make more money.
Nevada land only supports one cow per 20 acres so he can only graze about 8 cows on his land. But using Federal Land, Bundy is grazing an extra 3,387 head of cattle. (We know this because Bundy owns $1.1 million in grazing fees over a 20 year period. So $1.35 per cow per month works out to 3,395 cows.)
Net Profit per cow is running about $250. That means Bundy is making an extra $848,765 a year by using Federal Land. Even if he paid the government grazing fee, his profit would still be $818,765.
Over the 20 years of the dispute, Bundy has made $16 million.

III. Ranch Welfare. Bundy has received $8.2 million in services from the Tax Payers.
1. Bundy Refuses to pay $1.35 per head, per month to graze his cattle on Federal Land saying the land belongs to the states.
2. If the land in question were state land, Nevada charges $15.50, so instead of owing $1.1 million to the Federal Government, Bundy would owe Nevada $12.6 million. Private land runs $14.50 and $20 per head, so private costs would be between $11.8 and $16.3 million.
3. Even if it was State Land, Bundy couldn't graze it, because the Nevada withdrew all grazing rights in the area in 1993.
4. The government spends millions maintaining the land and keeping it suitable for grazing. The Government routinely kills predators, removes trees to create more grazing land, drills wells, builds dams, controls weeds spread by cattle, fights fires and builds roads to access the land. The Government Accounting Office, it cost the government $8.10 per head to maintain the land. That means that, Bundy is receiving $8.2 million in services courtesy of the Tax Payers.

Section-I
https://www.clarkcountynv.gov/depts/dcp/Pages/Curre...
https://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/04/22/property-rec...
https://www.8newsnow.com/story/25301551/bundys-ance...
https://www.8newsnow.com/story/25302186/an-abbrevia...
Section-II
https://www.agweb.com/article/cattle_feeding_profit...
https://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_cows_can_you_gr...
Section-III
https://beefmagazine.com/business/rising-lease-rate...
https://mesquitelocalnews.com/sections/opinion/edit...
https://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/grazing.html
https://www.nass.usda.gov/Charts_and_Maps/Grazing_F...
https://npaper-wehaa.com/western-livestock-journal/...
https://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_22704766/federal...
Click to expand...

That was so bad. So many here, including you, obviously, are arguing a fictitious argument. I actually agree with at least half of everything you said... but you insist on missing the point.... and I am not telling it for, literally, the 20th+ time.
 
PKM said:
The second paragraph is an example of someone jumping into a thread late and completely missing the point being made within it.
Click to expand...

I did think this thread was about the land management dispute between Bundy and the BLM. I do know a little bit about that subject. I don't feel qualified to discuss the conspiracy stuff. Switching back to lurker mode...
 
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