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Hantlers explains why things are the way they are on reservations

One Brow said:
It was, to some degree, hounding and mocking, but it was not a trap. When I make statements about large groups of people or humans generally, I fully expect to be called out on them. Usually I can provide, once in a while I can't, and I publicly withdraw the statement. I never consider myself to have been trapped by any other poster for this.

I didn't goad or entrap Hantlers into mouthing off about the lack of motivation among Native Americans, he decided to do that for himself, and I called him out on it. If there was a trap, he laid it out for himself.
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Fair enough. I could have used a much better term but the point I was making stands.

Despite franklins dissatisfaction with me.
 
One Brow said:
Hantlers claimed that Native Americans on reservations were demotivated from success by too many government handouts, and I wanted to see if he could explain that, given that all those handouts means they are still living in poverty. So far, no explanation.
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If you have the basic things you need or even want, are you "living in poverty" just because they government says you are?

You can see this in certain parenting styles.

Children are demotivated when given too many parental handouts, but if they want something their parents won't give them they are motivated to do just enough "work" to get what they want.
 
PearlWatson said:
If you have the basic things you need or even want, are you "living in poverty" just because they government says you are?

You can see this in certain parenting styles.

Children are demotivated when given too many parental handouts, but if they want something their parents won't give them they are motivated to do just enough "work" to get what they want.
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What race are these "children" ?
 
One Brow said:
You mean, you think most humans are content to live in poverty? Is that the case with you?
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No, that's not what I meant. But I'm sure some are content to live in poverty, especially if it gets them more than being one penny above poverty.

I was referencing the still being in poverty despite the handouts thing. If they are still in poverty doesn't that show that the handout policies aren't working very well? Many economists would point exactly to the lack of incentive that Hantlers did. But I'm sure you're Keynesian.
 
LazyD said:
No, that's not what I meant. But I'm sure some are content to live in poverty, especially if it gets them more than being one penny above poverty.

I was referencing the still being in poverty despite the handouts thing. If they are still in poverty doesn't that show that the handout policies aren't working very well? Many economists would point exactly to the lack of incentive that Hantlers did. But I'm sure you're Keynesian.
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My experience is that those that just miss the threshold for state assistance (food stamps, Medicaid...) as well as federal benefits like SSI are often much worse off than those who qualify.
 
One Brow said:
You mean, you think most humans are content to live in poverty? Is that the case with you?
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Some are. I'm sure none want to be in poverty. But heck, I want to be a billionaire.

There's probably people making this decision: I can get by in poverty, so why would I choose to work harder and spend my time more wisely for little or no net benefit?

So, most humans? I don't know. But are there some? Undoubtedly.
 
Stoked said:
My experience is that those that just miss the threshold for state assistance (food stamps, Medicaid...) as well as federal benefits like SSI are often much worse off than those who qualify.
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Wouldn't doubt it

And moving up a class economically is a slow process. It's normally a generation long process. So when people move up the ranks, but get a net loss because of losing some benefits, it would be foolish to think it doesn't change incentives. And if the incentive to move up economically by working harder and spending one's time more wisely goes down enough, then people will choose government benefits every time.
 
PearlWatson said:
If you have the basic things you need or even want, are you "living in poverty" just because they government says you are?
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Do they have everything they want? I've never met anyone on the government dole who has everything they want.

PearlWatson said:
You can see this in certain parenting styles.

Children are demotivated when given too many parental handouts, but if they want something their parents won't give them they are motivated to do just enough "work" to get what they want.
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My kids are motivated by wanting to please us, by the joy of doing new things, and by a desire to improve themselves. I don't need to use things as motivators. If I tell my son to mow the lawn, he mows it whether I offer money or not (the money may improve the speed with which it gets done, but it gets done regardless).
 
LazyD said:
No, that's not what I meant. But I'm sure some are content to live in poverty, especially if it gets them more than being one penny above poverty.

I was referencing the still being in poverty despite the handouts thing. If they are still in poverty doesn't that show that the handout policies aren't working very well? Many economists would point exactly to the lack of incentive that Hantlers did. But I'm sure you're Keynesian.
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If you are convinced the best you can ever do is one penny above poverty, then I agree there is little to be gained for getting that one penny. On the other hand, many people take that penny if they believe in a few years it can become dollars.

Before the handouts, poverty was much more widespread and much more stark in the US.

I'm a pragmatist. Figuring out what works is more important than adhering to any particular economic theory.
 
LazyD said:
There's probably people making this decision: I can get by in poverty, so why would I choose to work harder and spend my time more wisely for little or no net benefit?

So, most humans? I don't know. But are there some? Undoubtedly.
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Exactly. People need to think that there's something better at the end of the tunnel to go through it.
 
One Brow said:
If you are convinced the best you can ever do is one penny above poverty, then I agree there is little to be gained for getting that one penny. On the other hand, many people take that penny if they believe in a few years it can become dollars.

Before the handouts, poverty was much more widespread and much more stark in the US.

I'm a pragmatist. Figuring out what works is more important than adhering to any particular economic theory.
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And many do not. They cannot survive those few years and are therefore kept in poverty by necessity.
 
One Brow said:
My kids are motivated by wanting to please us, by the joy of doing new things, and by a desire to improve themselves. I don't need to use things as motivators. If I tell my son to mow the lawn, he mows it whether I offer money or not (the money may improve the speed with which it gets done, but it gets done regardless).
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You realize we ain't really talking about parenting right?

No citizen has a desire to please the government...if the dependent thinks they have no other/better options (despite reality) they are going to do what it takes to keep the people in power who promise to keep the spigot turned on.

If you rob Peter to pay Paul you'll get the support of Paul.
 
PearlWatson said:
You realize we ain't really talking about parenting right?

No citizen has a desire to please the government...
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People have a desire to please themselves and impress their compatriots; this seems close to universal among mammals, much less humans.
 
One Brow said:
People have a desire to please themselves and impress their compatriots; this seems close to universal among mammals, much less humans.
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oh brother...

I'm sure we could have a very lively discussion on equine motivation. I'm sure California Chrome really impressed all his horse buddies with his win in the Derby this past weekend! And I'll bet he's feeling pretty darn pleased with himself.
 
moevillini said:
oh brother...

I'm sure we could have a very lively discussion on equine motivation. I'm sure California Chrome really impressed all his horse buddies with his win in the Derby this past weekend! And I'll bet he's feeling pretty darn pleased with himself.
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Horses are reptiles iirc
 
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