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Part of being conscious ain't just awareness it is self awareness.

If you put a mirror in front of a cat it thinks there is another cat there.

The same is true of toddlers until they do a little testing...look behind the mirror...see that the being in the mirror does everything they do.

Nobody thinks cats are "unconscious", or toddlers, either. lol

toddlers and cats are alike in their extreme capacity to drive "controlling" humans stark raving mad, sometimes. And, btw, the capacity for going "stark raving mad" could be worked up as part of my definition of "consciousness". IMO, the only reason "liberals" and in fact most citizens are not "stark raving mad" about their politicians is because the media is wholly-owned, or otherwise bought-out, and like dogs that been thrown huge slabs of meat, are busy feasting, while the political theives are sacking our "house". In a word, people don't know what's going on, or why. If they did understand, the only clearly sane and rational response would be to go "stark raving mad". Maybe even vote for some third party candidates. . . .

I've been thinking some more. . . .

Clearly, the "human" nature includes imagination and the capacity of conceive of things that clearly have nothing to do with the "real", or even with the physically objective world or universe. We have universes of our own "creation" made up in our own heads.

Any man who has a significant interest in a woman. . . . any woman who gives a crap about some man. . . . knows what I'm talking about. There is just no way men and women are going to see the world the same way.

Fantasy and Will.

No computer will ever have these characteristics.

No merely objective construct of flesh, bone, and DNA can determine such things.

So, obviously, the "materialists" are morons, self-blinded by their own conceits. . . . which they have of course constructed using their own talents for fantasy and will.
 
So, obviously, the "materialists" are morons, self-blinded by their own conceits. . . . which they have of course constructed using their own talents for fantasy and will.

What are you defining as a "materialist?"
 
What are you defining as a "materialist?"

An excellent question, which probably I can't answer.

Most philosophical "materialists", which I'm sorta doing a soliloquy more or less "agin", define the universe in terms of observable, measurable stuff. Mass, Energy. And phenomena related somehow to these things, like electricity, magnitism, gravity. . . . But it gets sorta ill-defined when you really try to get down to the details. Particle physics, Cosmology. . . .

Most philosophical "materialists" balk about discussing metaphysical or supernatural phenomena like ESP, remote viewing, or even irregularly reproducible scientific results, like "cold fusion". Pretty clear to me that they aren't going to show up to discuss bizarre human phenomena like fantasies, imagination, or even "Art".

I will personally take a stand that there are "material" forms of existence that we don't know how to observe or measure, yet. I envision that in my fertile imagination as stuff that might be somehow in another "world", in other "dimensions" of the universe we just can't "see". . . . . So it might mean, ultimately, that I'll get into a sort of vision of things that nobody will believe, maybe not even me. I imagine a universe of this sort or that sort, and hold it out as "possible" on some basis or another. . . . . I will stand up straight, purse my lips, and look you straight in the eye, and say we don't know it all, yet.

But beyond even those kinds of "material" universes, it seems to me that our human capacities for fantasies, illusions, dreams, and other essentially "unhinged" perceptions. . . . dreams of "freedom" and "liberty" for example. . . . . are essential for our creativity. For our ability to conceive of things that don't exist objectively in the universe, and then even contrive some way to actually "create" what we have imagined. . . .

Yep, we can dream of political fantasies like world peace and social justice, and even try to make it real. . . . . We are freakin' amazing. . . .

We can even imagine that we are doing that, when in fact the power of government is being fought out behind closed doors by maybe less than five real honchos who each want it all.
 
You're right. Self awareness is just a higher order aspect of consciousness.

Your last sentence was genius.

"Self-awareness" is complex. It includes some fact, and puts it in a framework of fantasy. . . . Which means we are all living in a yellow submarine, or something else we choose to like as a sort of bubble universe. We don't think it's nice going around to pop other peoples' bubbles. . . . like trying to tell them they're morons because they're "liberals". . . . .I spend too much time thinking about such things, and maybe not enough time swimming with my kids.

We all exult too easily, and too much, at having some kind of little mental vision of why someone else is moronic. When we turn that evil eye inward, we all too quickly decide it's counterproductive to the issues of the day, like where we are going to park on Rodeo Drive.
 
You're right. Self awareness is just a higher order aspect of consciousness.

Your last sentence was genius.

So of course, I have to disavow any insinuation of "genius" when I realize that the folks I describe as "moronic' are no less delustional than I am myself, I just have another fantasy bubble I live in. . . .
 
In regards to philosophical "materialists", or "scientists", so-called. . .

I dabbled in quantum mechanics a little. Lots of fun, that math. Very useful in atomic terms for explaning a whole lot of peculiar properties of matter.

sub-atomic particles are almost wholly understood in mathematical terms, since we need giganormous equipment to even "look" at them.

But it occurs to me, in dealing with the math, that there's really nothing that is "material" at all. It's all wave mechanics and illusions. If the wave equation is non-zero we say it "exists", if the wave equation is non-zero we say it's "forbidden".

But then we get some huge telescope and look out at the universe. We invest in a a simple but extremely perfect "prism", and look for the light emitted by "forbidden" forms of hydrogen, stuff that shouldn't exist by the mathematical laws. . . . . and we "see" that light. We surmise that even when the probability of a transition is zero, in a sufficient mass of "helper" molecules, that transition will indeed "exist".

A physical chemist of Spanish fame declared "We have dreamed the world". . . . Cold fusion is mathematically improbable to the chance of one in ten with seventy six "zero" placeholders. . . .


1/10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 th chance of it happening. However, two grams of deuterium provides 6X10000000000000000000000000 collisions several hundred times each second. . . . so yes, in a year or a hundred years it will happen, once. Well, maybe once if we have some hydrogen-packing metal in that solution. A ton of metal in a huge pool of that solution. . .

An electrode creating a voltage "hammer" in a lithium deuteride in deuterium oxide solution, with palladium, with an alloyed "helper" metal like Beryllium that reduces the crystal packing spaces and/or participates in the nuclear spatial range by providing some path, some "transition state" or by pulling atoms of deuterium closer together. . . . . and the math begins to say it's gonna happen. . . .

At any rate, our ideas of things seldom really merit the claim of "fact".

We just don't really know that much.

So we describe the universe in broad terms that may or may not actually stand the test of time. . . . .
 
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Most philosophical "materialists" balk about discussing metaphysical or supernatural phenomena like ESP, remote viewing, or even irregularly reproducible scientific results, like "cold fusion". Pretty clear to me that they aren't going to show up to discuss bizarre human phenomena like fantasies, imagination, or even "Art".

Your clarity occludes reality for you. As a gamer, I regularly immerse myself in immerse myself in fantasy, imagination, and art, while also being a materialist.

I will personally take a stand that there are "material" forms of existence that we don't know how to observe or measure, yet.

Most materialists would agree. One example would be dark matter and dark energy; there are doubtless others.
 
Your clarity occludes reality for you. As a gamer, I regularly immerse myself in immerse myself in fantasy, imagination, and art, while also being a materialist.



Most materialists would agree. One example would be dark matter and dark energy; there are doubtless others.

it's a fun gamer, OB.

I'd freely re-state the sentence as

"Your beliefs occlude reality for you" and claim "I regularly immerse myself in fantasy, imagination, and art in a vain attempt to overcome my materialist predilections, at least momentarily. . . "

I would recognize that most materialists see the necessity to "fill in the gaps" of the known, observable and measurable world with placeholder concepts like "dark matter" and "dark energy" while rejecting placeholder concepts like "God", because even though they admit the mathematical necessity for accepting stuff "out there" that we can't see, they want to make it damn sure nobody will misunderstand the math and conclude it proves something inconsistent with the science models.

I theorize that our notion of "material" existence is actually what's wrong with the "science" models in fashion today. . . . .

I don't think that idea "occludes" reality, but might be necessary to include reality in our mind games.
 
I'd freely re-state the sentence as

Of course you would, exhibiting much greater arrogance than my worst detractors claim for me.

I would recognize that most materialists see the necessity to "fill in the gaps" of the known, observable and measurable world with placeholder concepts like "dark matter" and "dark energy" while rejecting placeholder concepts like "God", because even though they admit the mathematical necessity for accepting stuff "out there" that we can't see, they want to make it damn sure nobody will misunderstand the math and conclude it proves something inconsistent with the science models.

You can't say God is inconsistent with science without first specifying which God the person is describing; I've read very few materialists who would say no version of God is compatible with science.
 
Of course you would, exhibiting much greater arrogance than my worst detractors claim for me.



You can't say God is inconsistent with science without first specifying which God the person is describing; I've read very few materialists who would say no version of God is compatible with science.
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I might even claim to have been born and bred on the milk of "arrogance", considering it was a fact of my life from my earliest memories as a toddler that unless you had a point of view and could defend it against all comers, you were "nobody". I was indeed the babe of that "genius clan". I learned to play chess before I learned to read, and I took the beatings from my older brothers like a man. On the chess board, on the basketball court, and at the dinner table. I miss the daily exercise. . . . .

But I think you know that my kind of arrogance is not the ignorant kind, not really. I respect people who are willing to stand up for their beliefs, even if they don't take mine seriously. I might be your "worst" detractor, at times at least, but while I ponder the possibility of your "arrogance", I at least put in the same class as my own. You understand the importance of having reasons and methods of presentation in a discussion, and to your credit you connect your positions, somehow, to the underlying data base you consider relevant.

That's why we can have "fun" games in here.

I can say "God" is inconsistent with science in the view of many disbelievers in God who find reasons in science for that disbelief, at least in their specific minds. That is what bugs me about a lot of political rhetoric in "progressive" politics. I'm not sure they have very good ideas of either what science is, or what God may be.

My use of the term in the above post refers to the place-holder value of the term "God", not necessarily to any specifc definition or concept embraced by any religion or even any possible human. It could be anything, from nature in its raw essence to "life-force" in nature, to the cognitive functionality of "life" in all its forms, to some "intelligence" behind "design", to Buddha, to Jesus, to a common Father of mankind or. . . . I susppose the list is as endless as human imagination itself.

The God I consider most relevant is the one that identified Himself to the Israelites, as well as to Abraham and other more ancient and lesser understood characters portrayed in legendary form from our earliest "history". The one that cared, the one that spoke, the one nobody really knows for sure. The one we sometimes love, and the one who gives some of us a sense of personal value and personal belonging to a larger community in the universe. The one so many people have said so much about with so little actual understanding. . . the one anyone can disbelieve in because someone somewhere said something stupid about Him that just makes no sense at all. . . . . sorta. . . . unless we just want to belief, and engage our fantastic and awesome capacity for faith, belief, and love, so that we can imagine we "belong" to Him.

For me, it's the one who understood our need for liberty and freedom, and accepted our propensity for error, for ignorance, for sin, and for every kind of evil imaginable, and the one who took the long view and gave us a way back home, after we have run out our wildness and come to accept that we in fact do have a home.
 
your position that science might need a specific definition to evaluate in determining the reality of that form of "God" is a good position.
 
I can say "God" is inconsistent with science in the view of many disbelievers in God who find reasons in science for that disbelief, at least in their specific minds.

When people are told that the world is only 6000 years old, or that biological variation is limited by God despite hundreds of millions of years, or that faith will allow you to drink poison and live, you can turn to science to rebut that faith. When you look at the relentless slaughter of species and the savagery of life in general, you can use that as the basis to question whether any supernatural creator would really be all-loving. In that sense, you can find reasons in science for disbelief.

That is what bugs me about a lot of political rhetoric in "progressive" politics. I'm not sure they have very good ideas of either what science is, or what God may be.

Yeah, me too.
 
And besides, I've been putting up hay for two weeks practically non-stop,and other farm stuff. So this is my idea of riding into town for a hot time in the old town tonight. . . ha ha
 
And besides, I've been putting up hay for two weeks practically non-stop,and other farm stuff. So this is my idea of riding into town for a hot time in the old town tonight. . . ha ha

OHhhHhhH.. LOL.. I didn't know you were into that kind of thing?????
 
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