Omnibus Gordon Hayward Thread (To clean up the Board some)

[Stoked]

But he never did either at the same time or even came close. When he shot more, his shooting suffered. His best chance to shoot those %s is to shoot a lot less - not score 20ppg.

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His shooting suffered as he had a poorer shoot selection. If he is set up then I think hes numbers will go back up towards his career averages. I think last years shooting was an abberation. His best chance to shot those %s is better shots.

Last year his rebounding and assist game grew as a result of him being the man. I think he might maintain his rebounding numbers and his passing has certainly improved which might help him maintain his assist numbers.

Keep in mind I am saying it is possible, not guaranteed.

 

[franklin]

Really? The short-sighted view would be expecting this rebuild to be over now, in which case overpaying Gordon might not be a bad idea.

If you read that to mean I expect the rebuild to be over now, and Hayward to be a key piece, then you need to read it again.

However, if it takes several more years, Hayward just leads us to slightly worse draft pick while hurting our flexibility. It all comes down to how confident you are on Exum, or anyone else for that matter, blowing up. If that happens, overpaying Hayward could work out fine. If it doesn't, Hayward's contract will be a significant factor in hindering our rebuild.
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I admire the uptimism, but I'm betting this rebuild will take a few more years.

You prove my point by regurgitating the claim that the only way to build this team up is to dump Hayward, tank, and using flexibility in another direction.

Again, if the Jazz can project significant increases in cap salary while Hayward's raises shrink in relative terms, and also project improvements in Hayward's game, then this contract can be considered an easily tradable asset a couple years down the line.

I don't care if you disagree about Hayward's future value, that wasn't the point. It's that NBA front offices have to look at this contract with those considerations in mind. Matching Hayward and waiting for his current overvalued contract to converge on his future value, at which point you can package him for something else, is an option worth considering.

You are correct that the Jazz need to continue the rebuild. My scenario was to package Hayward with 2-3 first round picks for a true third cog, after acquiring a second over the next couple of seasons.

Hayward's contract will be a significant factor in hindering our rebuild.

As the significant interest in Hayward and Parsons has shown, the Jazz will have no problem dumping this contract as soon as next summer. It will hinder nothing further than this one season, and since cap space isn't buying a whole lot, taking the chance on Hayward for one more season may be the smartest route to go.

 

[franklin]

As the significant interest in Hayward and Parsons has shown, the Jazz will have no problem dumping this contract as soon as next summer. It will hinder nothing further than this one season, and since cap space isn't buying a whole lot, taking the chance on Hayward for one more season may be the smartest route to go.

I think I just talked myself into matching Hayward as the best path forward if nothing significant is offered to the Jazz in the next 72 hours.

 

[GVC]

I will use the AK47 reference as an example. The Jazz went from pretenders to contenders in the span of 2 years. TWO YEARS! In the 2004-2005 season, AK47 had a year of inflated stats as the versatile, #1 point forward option (Boozer was hurt that year and didn’t play), leading the jazz to a 26-56 record. What did the jazz do as a reward for one of the worst records in the NBA? They gave AK the max. (Any of this sound familiar??)

AK's contract was extended before the start of the 2004/05 season, after leading a bunch of nobodies to within an inch of a playoff birth and making the all-star team in 03/04.

Further, while max contracts aren't nearly as terrible now as they were under the 1999 CBA, AK's 2003/04 season was in a different league than Gordo's 2013/14 season. AK was one of the most dynamic players in the league, arguably already a top-10 player, and an all-star. Gordo looked like a #3 option and average defender...


AK - 2003/04 (age 22)

78 games
37.1 minutes
16.5 points
8.1 rebounds
3.1 assists
1.9 steals
2.8 blocks
2.8 turnovers
.471 2pt
.338 3pt (.471 from the corner)
.790 ft
.559 TS
On-Off/100 possessions: +11.4

5th in the NBA in win shares (11.6)
10th in win shares per 48 (among players with 2000+ minutes, .192)
8th in PER (among players with 2000+ minutes, 22.6)
21st in ORtg (among players with 2000+ minutes, 111)
16th in DRtg (among players with 2000+ minutes, 97)


Gordo - 2013/14 (age 23)

77 games
36.4 minutes
16.2 points
5.1 rebounds
5.2 assists
1.4 steals
0.5 blocks
2.8 turnovers
.453 2pt
.304 3pt (.275 from the corner)
.816 ft
.520 TS
On-Off/100 possessions: +0.1

136th in the NBA in win shares (3.6)
98th in win shares per 48 (among players with 2000+ minutes, .062)
54th in PER (among players with 2000+ minutes, 16.2)
91st in ORtg (among players with 2000+ minutes, 105)
90th in DRtg (among players with 2000+ minutes, 111)

 

[seattlejazzfan]

AK's contract was extended before the start of the 2004/05 season, after leading a bunch of nobodies to within an inch of a playoff birth and making the all-star team in 03/04.

Further, while max contracts aren't nearly as terrible now as they were under the 1999 CBA, AK's 2003/04 season was in a different league than Gordo's 2013/14 season. AK was one of the most dynamic players in the league, arguably already a top-10 player, and an all-star. Gordo looked like a #3 option and average defender...


AK - 2003/04 (age 22)

78 games
37.1 minutes
16.5 points
8.1 rebounds
3.1 assists
1.9 steals
2.8 blocks
2.8 turnovers
.471 2pt
.338 3pt (.471 from the corner)
.790 ft
.559 TS
On-Off/100 possessions: +11.4

5th in the NBA in win shares (11.6)
10th in win shares per 48 (among players with 2000+ minutes, .192)
8th in PER (among players with 2000+ minutes, 22.6)
21st in ORtg (among players with 2000+ minutes, 111)
16th in DRtg (among players with 2000+ minutes, 97)


Gordo - 2013/14 (age 23)

77 games
36.4 minutes
16.2 points
5.1 rebounds
5.2 assists
1.4 steals
0.5 blocks
2.8 turnovers
.453 2pt
.304 3pt (.275 from the corner)
.816 ft
.520 TS
On-Off/100 possessions: +0.1

136th in the NBA in win shares (3.6)
98th in win shares per 48 (among players with 2000+ minutes, .062)
54th in PER (among players with 2000+ minutes, 16.2)
91st in ORtg (among players with 2000+ minutes, 105)
90th in DRtg (among players with 2000+ minutes, 111)

Yikes.

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[JAZZGASM]

Yikes.

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True. The Jazz were struggling with offering him the max, but then Gasol got offered the max (and the consensus at the time was AK was a better player--turned out not to be true)

 

[seattlejazzfan]

True. The Jazz were struggling with offering him the max, but then Gasol got offered the max (and the consensus at the time was AK was a better player--turned out not to be true)

I was mainly talking about the difference in numbers between the two. AK was a legit star, while Hayward pretty much the mediocre player we all know and love.

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[JAZZGASM]

I was mainly talking about the difference in numbers between the two. AK was a legit star, while Hayward pretty much the mediocre player we all know and love.

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I got your point and agreed. I was just pointing out the Jazz even struggled to give AK the max. In hindsight,obviously we overpaid for AK, but if he had maintained his level of play with minimal injury, I wouldn't have complained too much. He was a stats machine, and did a lot of intangibles too. Loved vintage AK.

 

[seattlejazzfan]

I got your point and agreed. I was just pointing out the Jazz even struggled to give AK the max. In hindsight,obviously we overpaid for AK, but if he had maintained his level of play with minimal injury, I wouldn't have complained too much. He was a stats machine, and did a lot of intangibles too. Loved vintage AK.

Gotcha.

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[Stifle Tower]

I got your point and agreed. I was just pointing out the Jazz even struggled to give AK the max. In hindsight,obviously we overpaid for AK, but if he had maintained his level of play with minimal injury, I wouldn't have complained too much. He was a stats machine, and did a lot of intangibles too. Loved vintage AK.

I remember Larry H. saying at the time that AK wasn't a max player, but he would be by the end of his contract. AK was such a unique talent at that point that someone would have given him a huge contract. And then, allegedly, Larry H. vetoed a trade for Marion that would have gotten AK off the books sooner.

 

[fishonjazz]

I got your point and agreed. I was just pointing out the Jazz even struggled to give AK the max. In hindsight,obviously we overpaid for AK, but if he had maintained his level of play with minimal injury, I wouldn't have complained too much. He was a stats machine, and did a lot of intangibles too. Loved vintage AK.

So let me get this straight......
The jazz struggled to give AK the max, a far superior player on a crappy team that he almost led to the playoff.

The jazz have no problem with matching hayward, a far inferior player who led his team to 4th worst in the league.

Makes perfect sense

 

[Stifle Tower]

So let me get this straight......
The jazz struggled to give AK the max, a far superior player on a crappy team that he almost led to the playoff.

The jazz have no problem with matching hayward, a far inferior player who led his team to 4th worst in the league.

Makes perfect sense

Jazz GAVE AK the max before they had to; they could have told him to go test the market. They either match or lose Hayward. They don't have the choice of contract terms in the latter situation.

 

[fishonjazz]

Jazz GAVE AK the max before they had to; they could have told him to go test the market. They either match or lose Hayward. They don't have the choice of contract terms in the latter situation.

Ya, i said right my post you quoted that the jazz gave ak max and are gonna match hayward

 

[JAZZGASM]

So let me get this straight......
The jazz struggled to give AK the max, a far superior player on a crappy team that he almost led to the playoff.

The jazz have no problem with matching hayward, a far inferior player who led his team to 4th worst in the league.

Makes perfect sense

The market really dictated value for both. Gasols contract make AKs high. Paul George did the same thing with GH and now the market demand (or lack of supply) is causing GH to get the max. Jazz didnt want to pay ak or hayward. But to keep them you gotta pay what the market will pay.

 

[fishonjazz]

The market really dictated value for both. Gasols contract make AKs high. Paul George did the same thing with GH and now the market demand (or lack of supply) is causing GH to get the max. Jazz didnt want to pay ak or hayward. But to keep them you gotta pay what the market will pay.

No ****
The difference is that ak had earned his contract when the jazz offered it.

Hayward, not so much

 

[JAZZGASM]

No ****
The difference is that ak had earned his contract when the jazz offered it.

Hayward, not so much

AK played on a team that had a team concept. Hayward did not. Hayward was put in a much more difficult situation. If hayward had raul to give him the ball through sloans offense his #s would be better.

 

[akirac73]

No ****
The difference is that ak had earned his contract when the jazz offered it.

Hayward, not so much

mother effing THIS. People seem to forget that AK made the all-star team that season and showed promise as a dominating defensive player. He was far more versatile than Hayward at that point in their career. Hayward had quite possibly his worst season as a pro, and he's being offered the max. Crazy.

 

[fishonjazz]

AK played on a team that had a team concept. Hayward did not. Hayward was put in a much more difficult situation. If hayward had raul to give him the ball through sloans offense his #s would be better.

True

 

[fishonjazz]

mother effing THIS. People seem to forget that AK made the all-star team that season and showed promise as a dominating defensive player. He was far more versatile than Hayward at that point in their career. Hayward had quite possibly his worst season as a pro, and he's being offered the max. Crazy.

Also true





Sorry kicky. Can a mod merge my last two posts

 

[Deleted member 848]

Last bump of the day.